this post was submitted on 17 Jul 2023
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Linux

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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago (3 children)

#1 is just not being the default for 99% of devices. If someone gets a new computer, why would they go through the effort of installing a new os when the one it comes with works fine? Hell, I bet at least 50% of people in the market for a pc don't even know what an OS is.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Agreed. Android and chrome os are used happily by 10s of millions without any idea it's a Linux distro

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Which actually means Linux is being successfully adopted by the general public in a similar way to windows as a general use system that doesn't require a lot of technical knowledge.

Fully customizable distress will never be popular with the general public. They want systems that just do the general stuff and have it work automatically.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

I bet at least 50% of people in the market for a pc don't even know what an OS is.

70%*

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (7 children)

New user: I have a problem 😊

Everyone:👍

  • are you on xorg or wayland?
  • pulseaudio or pipewire?
  • what WM/DE are you using?
  • amd or nvidia?
  • what distro?
  • systemd?

New user: Nevermind 😮‍💨

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

if a new user is using a distro that doesn't use systemd they fell for a meme

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Doing tech support, I encountered this attitude. People like that are nearly impossible to help. "Why can't you just fix it!" The true answer never given is that your problem is probably something stupid you are doing, like trying to make a phone call by physically shoving the phone entirely up your asshole, and until I run through some common problems and ask some questions, I won't be able to tell you to have your significant other get the salad tongs and pull it out of your rear and then go over "dialing."

People mostly need to be willing to gather detailed system info with Inxi and share it.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

I'll have you know I get better reception when it's up my ass!

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (12 children)

At this point, my biggest dream is that these 'new user' distros used only Wayland, Pipewire, Systemd and Flatpaks simply to simplify things. Hopefully we're less than 2024 away from NoVideo Wayland support.

Also as soon as XFCE releases their Wayland support, that soon it'll become the most famous DE choice of Mint.

What I am really happy is to see how well supported Pipewire already is. Pipewire has never showed any problem in the new installs for me.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (4 children)

It breaks. And I cant imagine anyone who wants to spend time fixing it, much less how long it would take tech illiterate people. Cant explain how many times ive gotten some random error downloding a package, and even ill have a hard time finding what tf the cryptic error message means

That and permissions, though they could be lumped into the first point

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Linux needs more apps that GUI friendly and easy to use, better support for hardware and upgrades that doesn't break easily. Should come pre-installed with PC. Most people don't bother or know how to change OS.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

3rd party software/hardware. Companies don't develop for Linux. And Linux developers can't reverse engineering everything.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Linux is the coolest fucking OS, hands down... If you're a computer nerd. Otherwise it's inconvenient at the best of times. Many users click around in their OS of choice without fully understanding what they're doing, myself included. Try this in Linux and you're in for a really bad time.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

The second that you have to google the more basic things...you have lost the audience

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

Based on my tests on my family and friends, the main problem is tech support. Most geeks seem to assume other people want the same things than themselves (privacy, freedom, etc). Well, they don't. They want a computer that just works.

Overall when using Linux, people actually don't need much tech support, but they need it. My father put it really well by saying: "the best OS is the one of your neighbor."

I apply few rules:

  1. The deal with my family and friends is simple: you want tech support from me ? ok, then I'm going to pick your computer (usually old Lenovo Thinkpads bought on Ebay at ~300€) and I'm going to install Linux on it.

  2. I'm not shy. I ask them if they want me to have remote access to their computer. If they accept, I install a Meshcentral agent. Thing is, on other OS, they are already spied on by Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc. And most people think "they have nothing to hide". Therefore why should they worry more about a family member or a friend than some unknown big company ? Fun fact, I've been really surprised by how easily people do accept that I keep a remote access on their computer: even people that are not family ! Pretty much everybody has gladly agreed up to now. (and God knows I've been really clear that I can access their computer whenever I want).

  3. I install the system for them and I make the major updates for them. Therefore, if I have remote access to the system, I pick the distribution I'm the most at ease with (Debian). They just don't care what actually runs on their computers.

  4. When they have a problem, they call me after 8pm. With remote access, most problems are solved in a matter of minutes. Usually, they call me a few times the first days, and then I never hear from them anymore until the next major update.

So far, everybody seems really happy with this deal. And for those wondering, I can see in Meshcentral they really do use those computers :-P

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

When i told my dad i can install Rustdesk on his computer to do remote support (moved out), he asked me "does that mean you can look at my computer whenever you want?". I'm really proud of him, he actually listened.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Preinstalled.

Like, were nerds and we fuck with our computers n stuff. But most people are lucky to know what a power cord is.

Honestly if Linux with a good DE like KDE or Cinnamon was already on their PC at boot they would figure it out. Most people just use a web browser anyways.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

I have put my dad on Kubuntu. Don't like anything *buntu, personally, but I have to admit it's quite stable and with sane defaults. He hasn't complained ever since and support calls dropped considerably. He spends most of the time in Firefox anyways, where I've added ublock.

The problem with Windows was, he'd occasionally browse the web with Edge by mistake (or because MS forces it down your throat), and as soon as an 80+ y.o. browses the web without ad blocking, getting a virus is just a matter of time.

All this is to say that I agree with the fact that preinstalled is key. I wish that more effort was focused on fewer distros and I feel that so much talent and energies are being lost in marginal projects.

But many people do this for passion and it's of course their choice to decide where to contribute, or whether to spin up a brand new distro entirely, can't judge them for that. I'm just observing that those energies could be better used to smoothen some rough edges on more popular distros to make them even more appealing to OEMs and convince them to ship those on their hardware.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I personally dont understand why mass adoption is a goal.

The "challenge" to bring users to Linux is simply making them want to use Linux. There are enough flavours and guides ranging from plug and play that anyone can use to build your own kernel and distro from scratch that anyone can find what they want in Linux... if they want it.

The truth is that for a not insignificant portion of computer users, the OS is a means to an end not a feature. Its "the computer". A laptop that comes with windows 11 is a windows 11 machine.

If you want the average user to move to Linux, create an desktop environment with the option to look and behave like either windows or Mac, have a software compatibility layer for both that can run at the same time, buy a hardware company and include the distro as default and sell it to the masses at a loss to undercut all other options. Flood all consumer electronics stores with them.

Outside that, its not going to happen and I dont know why people want to make a competition out of it. Linux doesnt suit everyone and it doesnt have to. We see less GUIs as a good thing, id rather dev time from the solo/small dev teams go towards the functionality not making it look pretty. The majority of computer users dont agree with that though, and thats fine. I like being able to add/remove from my OS, most don't and thats fine too. I like rolling updates, the uproar around windows updates with thousands of youtube videos dedicated to people stopping them indefinitely indicates many others dont. Our semi annual O365 update is currently rolling out at work, and people are freaking out that one of their outlook toolbars moved. Never mind its a 4 second fix to move it back, but can you imagine these people seeking out/installing/configuring/using a new desktop environment?

Its not an elitist thing. Id love more of my friends to use linux, but I cant make them want to use something. It either appeals to them or it doesnt. For most the appeal of a computer is the software it runs, and the OS is just a means for that.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I personally dont understand why mass adoption is a goal.

Oh this one is easy. The higher market share the better software support they get.

And as a secondary bonus, the more people use it the more people contribute to it and make it even better. But mostly this one is just an extension of the first point.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Most people buy computers with the OS already installed and would get just as lost trying to install MacOS or Windows.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)
  1. Isn't pre-installed on well known machines by well known brands.
  2. Popular applications (whether productivity, creativity, or games) do not work out of the box that people want. It doesn't matter that alternatives exist, or that you can use things like Wine. If it's more than just click the icon, it's too much.
  3. If things cannot be done purely through touch / the mouse, it is too hard for most people.
[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (7 children)

If things cannot be done purely through touch / the mouse, it is too hard for most people.

100%. Even as a power-user (understatement) who overwhelmingly prefers keyboard input to control things when I'm "gettin' stuff done", I will sometimes miss the general consideration level of Windows' input handling when it comes to mouse and especially touch. Mouse is pretty damn good these days on Linux, but touch...

Touch is abysmal. A ton of modern laptops have touchscreens, or are actually 2-in-1s that fold into tablets, etc, and the support is just barely there, if at all. I'm not talking about driver support - this is often fairly acceptable. My laptop's touch and pen interface worked right out of the box... technically. But KDE Plasma 5 with Wayland- an allegedly very modern desktop stack- is not pleasant when I fold into tablet mode.

The sole (seriously, I've looked) Wayland on-screen-keyboard, Maliit, is just terrible. No settings of any kind (there is a settings button! it is not wired to anything, it does nothing), no language options, no layout options (the default layout is abysmal and lacks any 'functional' keys like arrows, pgup/dn, home/end, delete, F keys, tab, etc), and most egregiously, it resists being manually summoned which is terrible because it does not summon itself at appropriate times. Firefox is invisible to it. KRunner is invisible to it. The application search bar is invisible to it. It will happily pop up when I tap into Konsole, but it's totally useless as it is completely devoid of vital keys. Touch on Wayland is absolutely pointless.

Of course, there is a diverse ecosystem of virtual keyboards and such on Xorg! However, Xorg performance across all applications is typically abysmal (below 1FPS) if the screen is rotated at all. This is evidently a well known issue that I doubt will ever be fixed.

In the spirit of Open Source Software, and knowing that simply complaining loudly has little benefit for anyone, I have at several times channeled my frustration towards developing a reasonable Wayland virtual keyboard, but it's a daunting project fraught with serious problems and I have little free-time, so it's barely left its infancy in my dev folder, and in the meanwhile I reluctantly just flip my keyboard back around on the couch with a sigh, briefly envious of my friend's extremely-touch-capable Windows 2-in-1.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The biggest issue ive had (ive only used ubuntu) is the file management. Disks and file system is a bit different from boyh mac and windows, and i had a hard yime figuring out where and how, etc.

I couldnt figure out how to get my home network to work (so my windows pc could grab files off the linux pc) and such.

I had no issues setting that up, between my mac/windows pcs

I do plan on installing linux for my sons pc which he will then be forced to learn to some degree.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

The main issue is that easy problems that should be solved baseline by the OS crop up far too often for the average user to want to have to deal with day to day. Also, whenever you go to ask on a forum, you're usually told to just do something entirely different or use another distro. Every time I go to fix something on this machine it sends me down a rabbit hole of shit I don't care about because it doesn't solve my problem since it introduces a brand new one to solve. If I want to use solution X don't tell me to go install program Y that's your favorite program to use but is literally not what I'm trying to accomplish.

Today I installed Manjaro onto an old laptop and for the life of me I could not figure out why it wasn't connecting to the internet. It wasn't a network issue, it was the fact that the time was out of sync. It took me a while to realize that was the issue and not that I had fucked up my router config or something. It just couldn't validate any cryptography because the time was off. There were like four different solutions that all attempted the same fix and eventually I was able to connect with ethernet and restart timesync, which only worked after a restart.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Funding. Nobody has figured out how to fund development for large open source OSes outside of the enterprise realm. You crack that, you can have linux be installed by default on Desktop/Laptop computers, and patches that come as a result of that funding benefit the rest of the ecosystem as well. People will use the default, they will complain about it, just like they complain about Windows Update randomly restarting their computer, but they'll use it.

But also the share of people who own laptops or desktops continues to dwindle. Many people don't have and see no need for a computer. So they run Android, which is Linux, so I guess we're winning there?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (5 children)
  • Self updating without user interaction per default.
  • Better support of codecs and drivers.
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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago
  1. Installation process of Linux is complicated to an average Joe (Bootable USB/ISO file/Boot priority/format <- what are these scary terms?)
  2. Lack of availability of pre-installed Linux PCs at physical shops
  3. Lack of availability of industry-standard software
  4. Confusion for an average Joe due to excess choice of distros/application packaging format. Average people don't want choices, they want to be guided.
  5. (Minor point) Most available guides for doing something heavily requires terminal usage which can be daunting to new users
[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (9 children)
  1. All of the basics should just work well out of the box with minimal tweaking. Yes even NVIDIA stuff.
  2. The software center needs a massive overhaul. It feels like an afterthought by people who would rather use a command line.
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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Speaking from experience, from a long time ago, and from the people/family I've installed it for on older machines: It's different. That's 90% of it.

The people that had little to no windows/PC experience actually took to Linux a lot easier not having to relearn/change habits from windows.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The main challenge is resisting the urge to install Linux on your own. Because you will need help at some point, so start now by asking for help.

And then, when you don't find the solution by yourself don't waste time and ask for help.

In time you will get it enough to know what you're doing.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

It needs to "just work". It's not more complicated than that.

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