this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
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Pupils will be banned from wearing abayas, loose-fitting full-length robes worn by some Muslim women, in France's state-run schools, the education minister has said.

The rule will be applied as soon as the new school year starts on 4 September.

France has a strict ban on religious signs in state schools and government buildings, arguing that they violate secular laws.

Wearing a headscarf has been banned since 2004 in state-run schools.

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[–] [email protected] 48 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I am mildly in favor of that. Kids can't decide what to wear it's their parents who do.

This will simply reduce the artificial divide between those wear that type of stuff and who doesn't.

I also don't believe it's a freedom endangering, because they're aren't spontaneously people wearing abayas or burka or whatever just for the pleasure of it, I interpret the fact of wearing it as religious propaganda and artificial separation.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't know the law in France, but I'd worry it'll cause religious parents to just keep their kids out of state school and do some form of private religious education, causing a greater divide. The best counter to these attitudes is exposure to diversity and other viewpoints. Maybe the kids going to school and seeing that there are other ways is better.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"Maybe the kids going to school and seeing there are other ways is better". Yeah, but they aren't the ones deciding how they dress. They parents are the ones that do.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Of course. And if the parents dress them in that and keep them isolated the kids will pass that on to the next generation. If the kids go to school and see there are other options, maybe they'll choose to be different when they're independent or raise their kids differently. This is why cults always seek to isolate their members -- exposure to diversity breaks the cycle.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago
[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Nah, girls just won't be sent to schools.

This will be "the last straw" for many of their fathers.

Some will go, and their parents will begrudgingly accept (or turn a blind eye to their daughter dressing down as soon as she's near school.). The majority reaction will be similar to what you see in other nations that don't respect women enough to let them keep their autonomy.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago

That'll get the fathers at least 6 months in prison in France, probably more for negligence etc.

And homeschooling requires a very good reason why they can't go to school (pretty much always a health condition, and that needs proof) there are annual inspections and every other year the reason for homeschooling is verified.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago

Just not sending the children isn't an option in pretty much every place in Europe

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago
[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

can you explain why other people wearing culturally traditional clothing is "religious propaganda and artificial separation"? do you feel this way about other traditional garb, or is it just the scary muslims?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yes i can explain. Literally nobody else does it. And if someone would, then my position will be the same: wear regular clothes in public institutions.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

i think enforcing the local culture by telling women what they can and cannot wear is bad, actually

can you explain why you disagree with that stance

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

we are talking about underage girls here, not exactly adult "women" so I reject the idea that those girls could choose/buy their outfit. Regardless, I disagree because:

    1. We are choosing between either parents imposing a robe, or the state imposing a robe; wearing that robe would clearly differentiate the ethnicity/religious background of the pupil, while wearing regular "whatever everyone else is wearing" would help the integration and erase the boundaries. Note that parents cannot just withdraw the kid out of school, so they have to integrate; private education is almost never an option
    1. It avoids the whole can of worms like "professor didn't like my muslim robe, that's why I got bad grades"
    1. Personal take: I HATE religion. Yes, churches too, I have enough hate for every religious nut out there. And no need to tell me "abaya is not a religious dress", who are you fooling.

Ideally, I agree, State should just fuck up and let people live. But that's not taking into account any local context, and nobody lives in a vacuum, people live in some particular society. As an immigrant myself, I do think that it's best for foreigners to integrate to host country as much as possible.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What about the Jews and their Yamakas? The Catholics and their Rosary? Other religions have certain dress codes and accessories, too. They are just not always a full body covering.

I would hope that schools in France ban other religious items like those if they are banning Muslim clothing and accessories.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They are actually. That's literally said: "no religious symbols in school".

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

That's good then I see no problem as long as the rule is enforced equally. Religion has no place in schools, unless it's history class.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Have you ever lived in France?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Oui ça fait 20 ans que j'y suis, indeed

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

That made me laugh

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Un bon petit enfant de Petain