this post was submitted on 28 Feb 2024
6 points (87.5% liked)
MTG
1905 readers
24 users here now
Magic: the Gathering discussion
General discussion, questions, and media related to Magic: the Gathering that doesn't fit within a more specific community. Our equivalent of /r/magicTCG!
Type [[Card name]] in your posts and comments and CardBot will reply with a link to the card! More info here.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Your Generous Patron example is fairly simple. I think you came to the wrong conclusion when you say "the creature doesn’t yet exist when the ETB resolves." The creature definitely does exist at that point -- its existence is what triggered the ability.
If you want to use Generous Patron to put +1/+1 counters on creatures you don't control, and thereby get to draw cards from it, you can. Generous Patron has to be on the battlefield in order for its Support ability to trigger. If you choose to target other players' creatures with it, and if the Patron doesn't get killed before the Support ability resolves, it will be there to see you put those +1/+1 counters on things.
If you look at the rulings for Patron in Gatherer or Scryfall, you'll notice they point out that "Support can target a creature another player controls." That's trying to draw your attention to the fact that you can use Patron in this way.
Let's dig a little deeper. As a general rule, can entering creatures trigger their own ETB abilities?
Usually creatures will use specific wording to avoid confusion. They might say "Whenever another creature enters", like [[Celebrity Fencer]]. Or else they'll say "Whenever [this creature] or another creature enters", like [[Fallaji Vanguard]].
If you look at the (short) list of creatures that just say "whenever a creature enters", I don't think any of them meet the conditions to trigger themselves. At least, not ordinarily. But what if, let's say, [[Sigil Captain]] enters the battlefield while [[Godhead of Awe]] is already in play? Does it give itself the counters?
I think it does. I found this in the Comprehensive Rules:
So in my example, the "event" is Sigil Captain entering the battlefield, Sigil Captain is an "object that exists immediately after the event", and Godhead's second ability is a "continuous effect that exists at the time".
This answer was a lot longer than I thought it would be. I hope it makes sense. (I also hope it's correct.)
Thanks for the long comment! I think our confusion in some way came from the fact that countering a spell and countering it's ETB isn't the same thing. Now that I think about it, if you counter a creature spell it also negates the ETB because the creature doesn't enter, right? Guess we did that wrong too.
Yes, you're right. If you [[Essence Scatter]] a creature, it will go straight from the stack to the graveyard without entering the battlefield, so any ETB triggers won't trigger. Now let's say you don't have Essence Scatter but you do have [[Stifle]]. In this case you'll have to let the creature resolve and enter the battlefield, but you can use the Stifle to counter its ETB trigger.
[[card name]] to call
"Whenever a creature enters the battlefield" is just a more general version of "When ~ enters the battlefield", so yes even in this case it'd trigger its own ETB. This is the relevant rule, which even calls out this case:
Cards are generally not worded this way to avoid confusion though. Instead you might see "Whenever ~ or another creature enters the battlefield", for example with [[Thorn Mammoth]].
[[card name]] to call
[[card name]] to call