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I think Logitech should take responsibility and give them a $30 voucher
this post was submitted on 10 Aug 2024
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“best we can offer is a replacement. but you will need to return the original”
I laughed way too hard at that. Bravo.
Maybe a $10 Uber Eats gift card?
Expires on August 1st, 2024
🤦♂️
If anything that controller was the most solidly built thing on that entire sub.
Since the story came out people fixated on "lol he used a shitty gaming controller" but really that is one of the least sketchy design choices in the entire rig. Why reinvent the wheel and make a custom set of controls that are realistically another huge expense and potential failure point, when off the shelf solutions exist for that component?
The corners that were cut are the ones involving the viewport/nose adhesion to the ships frame, and the structural integrity of the carbon fiber hull itself. They had test data suggesting it was a bad idea to engage in repeated dives with their design, and an even worse idea to operate at the depths they chose. They decided to ignore that.
That doesn't explain why they used the wireless version of that Logitech instead of wired to control the thing they were literally inside.
To be fair, they're under water and sharks have been known to chew through electrical cables
I suspect the wired cabling would be to control components inside the sub, not outside. And I say that only because it's unlikely that wireless signals would penetrate the sub walls.
Yes but with this sub the water was on the inside too
Lol
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From what I can tell the lawsuit (which is against Ocean Gate, not Logitech) is really just calling out the controller as another example of willfully negligent behaviour.
You're certainly correct that the actual cause of the failure was the carbon fibre hull. Just a terrible idea on so many levels. Carbon fibre, by its nature, is good under tension, not compression. It was never going to function well as a pressure vessel underwater.
There were a litany of terrible decisions made by Ocean Gate, such as not tethering the sub, because it was cheaper to launch it from a towed raft, but none of those bad decisions ultimately mattered once that pressure vessel failed. Those people were dead so fast that, to quote Scott Manley, "You go from being biology to being physics."
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Having tried to use those, my main issue was the 710 is an unreliable 2.4ghz wireless, when bluetooth controllers all worked much better for me. I couldn't get the 710 to have reliable button presses from more than like 4 feet from my pc, so I ended up just using the 310 wired. Maybe there isn't enough interference on the sub for that to be an issue.
There's going to be no external interference when you're under water. Sea water makes an excellent em shield
True, but that’s hardly an endorsement for their safety. Wireless should never be used for critical life support equipment. It is mind bogglingly stupid they did this.
Using commercial off the shelf technology without proper testing and certification is absolutely cutting corners. See: Kaprun disaster.
What kind of fire rating did those COTS parts throughout the interior of the vessel have? What kind of redundancy existed? Would you use a Logitech controller for a spacecraft? The requirements of deep sea submersibles and spacecraft are quite similar. Would any of the submersible certification agencies approved this? I think not.
I see the Logitech controller, the carbon fiber hull, and so many other decisions he made as symptoms of the same corner cutting, “move fast and break things” mentality he had.
Using commercial off the shelf technology without proper testing and certification is absolutely cutting corners. See: Kaprun disaster.
I just read the wikipedia article; thanks for mentioning it.
I'm not sure it's a good example of your point, though. Notably:
the cause was the failure, overheating and ignition of a fan heater in the conductor's compartments which was not designed for use in a moving vehicle.
The onboard electric power, hydraulic braking systems, and fan heaters intended for domestic use increased the likelihood of fire.
The fan heater is the only off-the-shelf technology listed here, and there's no suggestion that it was part of the train's design. It seems likely that a train conductor brought it on board to keep the compartment warm through the workday. Still a bad idea in a train, especially on a 30° slope, but not an example of the designers cutting corners.
Edit:
Thanks to others for linking photos and a report (in German) that show how the heater was installed. It was clearly not a case of a conductor just setting the heater on the floor, but the installation still looks very much out of place. Perhaps it was corner-cutting after all, but it doesn't look like something done by the train designers. Does someone have details on this? I looks more likely a (very foolish) modification made by someone else, like maybe the train operators.
For anyone else following this, those hydraulic oil lines that the heater was nearly touching were apparently pressurized at 190 bar, which I think is about 2700 pounds per square inch.
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Question. Who are they actually suing? Didn't the bozo die along with everyone else? So who would hold responsibility?
The company itself (oceangate) still exists. The estate of Stockton Rush is also named in the suit.
It appears they are suing OceanGate, the company that made the submarine. The use of cheap, consumer grade hardware for critical functions (literally controlling the sub) is one of their criticisms.
I don't see why the controller is a problem.
If you go out and custom-make a controller, it's not likely going to be more reliable than anything that Logitech makes.
https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military-xbox-360-controller
US Army used to spend $38,000 per controller until they found out Xbox controllers were better
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Logitech... the company whose 150 dollar mouse have double click issues months into the purchase?
Yeah, but if you're going to use a wireless controller, don't fucking skimp and get some cheapo device, at least buy a goddamned 1st party controller. Not that MS/Sony don't have lemons too, but Logitech controllers are like a half step from the crappy MadKatz controllers from my childhood.
This had to be a project costing somewhere in the hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars, and they're trying to save $30 on an aftermarket controller?!? That's the literal embodiment of Penny Wise, pound foolish.
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Estate, insurance companies
"Rush, who saw himself as an innovator like "Steve Jobs or Elon Musk," the complaint says, once told Pogue, "At some point, safety just is pure waste." Rush thought he had found a lighter way to build subs."
This really summarizes the mindset of most second+ generation rich people. Because this guy lived with a lot of inherited money and power all his life, he assumed that everything that comes out of his brain must be the ultimate truth. So much so that without even a single reservation he happily took his son with him to that journey knowing full well that the submarine was probably violating several critical safety requirements that he deemed unnecessary. We are basically being ruled by such people folks.
I've worked with plenty poor people who thought the exact same thing.
The only difference is that he actually had the resources to realize his stupid ideas
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I wouldn't use a wireless controller playing subnautica. This is on the company for using sub par tech. Next time use first party wired!
sub par tech
Nice pun
The complaint does not allege that the Logitech wireless controller, the carbon fiber construction, Titan's innovative porthole, or the use of disparate materials with differing expansion/compression coefficients—four main areas of criticism—were individually responsible for the sub's implosion. But it does suggest that these systems could have together contributed to a "daisy chain of failures of multiple improperly designed or constructed parts or systems."
Titan was an implosion, so the pressure hull failed at some point, we just don't know what. While the Logitech controller is indicative of the decision making process, it's one component we can comprehensively rule out as causing the failure.
Shouldn't have put the 'implode' action on the shoulder button. It was only a matter of time before he triggered it on accident.
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This is such a frivolous lawsuit. Logitech is going to crush them if they even have to go to trial.
The article doesn't say they're suing Logitech.
It's using the fact that it was a wireless controller used over Bluetooth as part of the evidence that they created a bunch of unnecessary points of failure.
This is such a frivolous lawsuit. Logitech is going to ~~crush~~ implode them if they even have to go to trial.
There. Fixed it for you.
It's the submarine company/estate of the owner that are being sued for wrongful death
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Is it because everything else on the sub was ordered from aliexpress and pieced together? This was the only part from a legitimate manufacturer?
This feels like when Paul Walker's sister tried to sue Porsche for his death
This controller kept me in rocket league gold for months. I put it on eBay and some shmuck said they need it in a submarine but are on a budget so max can do is three fiddy. I just wanted to get rid of the thing
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It's true, I bought one thinking it was cheaper and easier than a PS5 controller, and my couch imploded.
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I've got two F710s and they're reliable enough. I wouldn't trust them in pro gaming though.
If I got in the sub and saw one of these used to steer it, I'd be very concerned. I know they're not really blaming Logitech; just taking one of these out of the plastic packaging and saying 'OK, now we've got steering and propulsion!' is not really a safety culture to get behind.
Oh yeah, the controller is clearly the one a fault here......
I mean, they clearly made this for an submersible, one made of carbon fibre specifically.
Just taking a guess here but the controller was probably brought up as evidence for how much they were cutting corners and disregarding safety and good sense, not as the cause of the failure
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They couldn't have splurged for an Xbox controller at least?
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