this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2023
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World’s first ‘superfast’ battery offers 400km range from 10 mins charge::Tesla, Toyota and VW supplier CATL says production will begin in 2023

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[–] [email protected] 179 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

Not once in the entire article do they measure energy in a unit suitable for measuring energy.

Measuring batteries in km is misleading and nonsensical. Batteries do not have a distance range. Cars have a distance range, based on many factors, only one of which is battery capacity.

Similarly, please stop measuring light output in watts that an imaginary incandescent bulb from 30 years ago might theoretically have used to produce that amount of light.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 year ago

I remember having the light-measured-in-watts discussion years ago when LED lights were still considered a novelty. Of course, this was with a videographer who actually understood the issue. He complained that it wasn’t a good idea to limit car headlights based on their wattage, which is how all the laws at the time were written. 5 years later, suddenly there were LED headlights blinding everyone.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I actually like the compatible watts for light bulbs. They should absolutely also prominently list a correct measurement (I assume linens?), but I only know how bright it is based on the old watt comparison.

Just like crop frame cameras list lens lengths in full frame equivalent because that is what people understand. But they also need to lose the actual mm.

[–] [email protected] 40 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Stopped reading after: “increase in battery capacity and charge time was achieved through a “brand-new superconducting electrolyte formula” that results in improved conductivity.”

I guess the source, author or both don’t really care about technically accurate terminology. If it’s good enough for Star Trek, it’s good enough for us.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

But it's got electrolytes. It's what batteries crave!

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So should we use Foot candles or Lux?

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Lumens are the way. Lux being Lumen by square centimeters.

But for something that diffuse light all around it, Lux has no meaning.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Nah we need radiation intensity by frequency graphs, anything else is just a magic number

[–] [email protected] 60 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Show me an article promising substantially better battery tech in less than 5years and I will show you a steaming hot pile of crap.

[–] dbilitated 25 points 1 year ago (2 children)

honestly though batteries have improved a lot

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But the manufacturing engineering is harder than anyone thinks.

[–] dbilitated 5 points 1 year ago

always. but saying "oh there's all these developments and they're all vapor" - i get sick of armchair experts telling everyone they know better every time on-the-horizon announcements come out. I get not all of them ever get produced, but by current phone has 10 times the battery capacity of my first one, and the quick charge really does give me something like an 80% charge in 15 minutes or so.

some of these claims are pretty out there but development keeps going and by the time something with high levels of performance is in your car these guys will be smugly crapping on something else to assert nerd authority. i guess it's just a social niche thing and nothing about batteries 🤷‍♂️

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

We're past that point. Every claim you heard in the last 10 years has been researched to its end. Some worked out, some didn't, but we didn't need all of them. Just one or two breakthroughs are enough.

These are going into production this year They're not lab experiments anymore.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Want to join me on an online betting platform and wager against my statement that you will not be able to purchase what is described here in 2years? We've seen these kinds of promises over and over again with battery tech. Slow incremental changes yes. These types of breakthrough reports are consistently garbage regardless of how close to market they claim they are. I presume they put these out to stir up investment.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

I don't bet, but CATL is a company that already manufactures tons of batteries for EVs. It's not some fly by night operation hoping to live off venture capital. If it's not in actual BEVs within 2 years, it'll be because car manufacturers themselves take longer than that to integrate it into existing designs.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

But in my lifetime battery tech has improved tremendously. Even in the last 5 years charge density and speed of recharge has had massive improvements.

[–] [email protected] 55 points 1 year ago (1 children)

How quickly will capacity degrade charging at that speed?

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Other challenges include access to battery materials and battery degradation, though CATL claims this second pain point is not an issue with its latest battery.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago (2 children)

If true then that's the real innovation for me. I don't want a car that I basically need to replace 70% the cost of every 4-5 years.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's already not the case. Not only do you not need to replace the battery (the range is just slightly reduced over time), the degredation is a lot slower than that.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes reduced range is very important- especially when you live in a cold climate where range is already significantly reduced from that. The cold climate also speeds up the degradation of the battery.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

Do you have experience? Adoption of EV vehicles in Norway is really high without much issue, and it's likely colder than wherever you live. Plus, 400km is a lot. The average commute in America is 66km. 400km might be used on a fairly long road trip, but if you can charge in 10m it's not really an issue. The everyday experience is just plug it in at home and it's done by morning. No gas station visits or anything else.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (9 children)

Current batteries can do 1000- 3000 cycles before the capacity drops below 80%.

With ranges of several hundred km this gives us hundreds of thousands km of lifetime mileage, if not a million.

Most ICE cars don't get that far either.

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[–] [email protected] 37 points 1 year ago (20 children)

Which is great. No need to poo poo it.

However. Fast charge isn't really necessary unless you are on a long journey over 400 km and need to charge on route or you drive a lot. Eg taxi Uber etc.

Best thing ever industry can do for planet would be a 350km car that's cheap. That's really what most car users require. They drive to and from work and most drive less than 100km a day.

Just like a phone you charge over night and don't need oooodles of range.

Anyone going on long trips really should be using a train with another vehicle if required at the destination.

Truckers are a different story and should be separated from the day to days if average car users

[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 year ago (5 children)

However. Fast charge isn’t really necessary unless you are on a long journey over 400 km and need to charge on route or you drive a lot. Eg taxi Uber etc.

There is a large amount of apartment renters that don't have access to the preferable overnight slow charging. Fast charging like this article is talking about could be a game changer for that segment of buyers.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Huge issue I know. One of the largest barriers to owning Evs. On street charging needs an overhaul and this is where you'd run into a lot of problems.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Given enough time and demand there’s no reason apartment complexes can’t outfit their parking spots with slow chargers. Slow charging a car is much less demanding (and efficient) than trying to fast charge.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

Our appartement block just voted down getting an engineer in to see what would be required to have car charging infrastructure installed. To be honest I get it, owners don't want to pay for that for the hypothetical electric car owner in the future.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But that 350km should not be best case summer. It should be worst case -10°C at ~250-300km

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Absolutely. Has to be actually real life range. Not best case in a lab with nobody in it with everything turned off.

350km up and down hills in hot/ cold weather with 2 adults and a child in back. Charging phones playing music acceleration and braking.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (9 children)

Fast charge isn't really necessary

Totally disagree. I think fast charging is the biggest roadblock we have in making electric cars more popular. Just think how much time filling cars with petrol takes, charging should also take similar time. 10-15 mins would be ok if you also can have breakfast in that time.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

I own exactly one car. If it can't do everything I need a car to do, it isn't the right car for me. Me, like many others, don't buy a car for the 98% of drives, we buy it for the 2% of drives that need to happen.

Edit: Given there isn't a train that goes the 2% of places, should I buy one car for 98% of drives and a completely different car for 2% of drives? That hardly seems like a good solution.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm with you 100%. The people downvoting you must live in some idealized fantasy land where public transit is effective and rental cars are easily available and affordable.

Like you, I live in the real world, where public transit is a mess, the rental market is completely overwhelmed, and charging infrastructure is spotty at best. So I went with a plug-in hybrid vehicle when I needed something new after my 11 year old Lancer got rear ended and written off by the insurance company. Enough electric range for all of my daily driving, but also a gas tank for when I need to exercise that 2% of my driving routine and go farther afield.

It's been over 500km since I last filled the tank and so far it's still full.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Let me get this out of the way - this is my experience, other people may have very different needs and uses. I’m not saying my needs are your needs, or that your needs are invalid. I have a driveway and we were able to install a charger at our house. I don’t tow trailers full of lumber uphill all day. YMMV.

Getting an EV really opened my eyes to how many wrong assumptions I had about how much I drive and what the pain points would be. I worried a lot that range would be an issue - we got a Bolt, which has a nominal 259 mile range (on the low side these days), it’s fast charging isn’t super fast, and we live in New England, and park outside, so the battery was cold for the first several months we had the car, but we figured we’d adapt. As it turns out, so far there really haven’t been any pain points, and adaptation has been minimal.

In the winter on very cold days, when we’re running the heater, our realistic range is about 160 miles on a charge. But it turns out, I don’t drive anywhere near that far on a typical day. It’s more like 30-40 miles a day, sometimes a hundred, which is fine. The charger tops up the car in an hour or two, and could charge it all the way from empty overnight easily. Range is a funny thing - the thought of going to a gas station every 150 miles is offputting, but in reality, it’s the opposite - every morning I have maximum range, and NEVER have to go to the gas station, or a fast charger, which is a benefit I hadn’t considered. Now in the summer the range is substantially over 300 miles, and AC uses WAY less power than the heater, so it’s even less of an issue. In fact, I only charge the car to 80% every day to maximize battery life now because it’s fine (I do charge all the way prior to long trips).

It also turns out we take fewer long trips than I thought (4 in the 7 months we’ve had the car, 2 in the dead of winter). There was a train that went somewhere near one of the 4 locations, at exorbitant cost. The first, 2 weeks after we got the car, was a little stressful as I learned how to find and use fast chargers, but it really wasn’t a big deal. Especially when I figured out how to warm up the battery first, and not to bother filling up, just charging in the fast part of the curve, and parking at level 2 chargers when possible. On our overnight trips, to place with no level 2 chargers, even the super slow 110v charging was enough to keep us from having to worry about charge.

So the downsides turned out to not really matter (to me), and the plus sides (full range every morning, essentially silent, no smell, and by far the best performance of any car I’ve ever had) are pretty sweet.

That said, if I got second car, I’d consider a plugin hybrid - that does seem to take care of most of the 2% cases. The knock on them is that they have pretty low electric range (like 30 miles or so) but it turns out that would be fine the vast majority of the time. I’d just have to remember to get the engine to start once in a while.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (12 children)

Know what's better than a battery that charges fast? A train with a catenary that never has to charge at all

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It's not remotely realistic to expect a sudden drastic change in infrastructure like that. While we should work toward such goals, statements like this are ignorant of the time and efforts necessary to affect such change.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm getting so sick of the anti-car crowd commenting this stuff on anything related to cars. Like yes, we know, public transportation is good and a great goal. But they're just so out of touch with reality most of the time.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Seriously. In fact we're doing both things in a lot of places.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Then build me a railroad track fucker.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Sure is. You should build out the infrastructure since no one else seems to want to.

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