this post was submitted on 11 Oct 2024

342 points (84.1% liked)

Lefty Memes

4272 readers

241 users here now

An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.

Serious posts, news, and discussion go in c/Socialism.

If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.

Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, updooting good contributions and downdooting those of low-quality!

Rules

0. Only post socialist memes

That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme)

1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here

Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.

2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such,

as well as condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.

3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.

That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" seen on lemmygrad and more specifically GenZedong (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).

4. No Bigotry.

The only dangerous minority is the rich.

5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.

We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.

(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Mantic Minotaur" when answering question 2)

6. Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.

Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.

7. Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:

Racism
Sexism
Queerphobia
Ableism
Classism
Rape or assault
Genocide/ethnic cleansing or (mass) deportations
Fascism
(National) chauvinism
Orientalism
Colonialism or Imperialism (and their neo- counterparts)
Zionism
Religious fundamentalism of any kind

(This is not a definitive list, the spirit of the other rules still counts! Eventual duplicates with other rules are for emphasis.)

founded 1 year ago

MODERATORS

[email protected]

342

Discussion (lemmy.dbzer0.com)

submitted 3 weeks ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

65 comments fedilink hide all child comments

top 50 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[+] [email protected] 62 points 3 weeks ago (8 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] [email protected] 35 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Exactly, heavy taxation on the ultra wealthy and wealth caps are incredibly popular topics in liberal circles. I swear some people have never actually talked to a liberal and just attack some strawman they've lumped in together with conservatives.

I'm leftist and anti-capitalist, but I also recognize that most liberals are people who want the same things leftists do, but simply haven't thought deeply enough about what the true root causes of society's issues are. It's an issue of tactics rather than a fundamental disconnect in core principles and values. Ultimately they want a more equitable, less stratified society where society helps and supports the disenfranchised. The same thing leftists want. They just don't understand that capitalism has to go in order to achieve it.

Liberals, unlike conservatives, are actually generally quite reasonable people since they aren't motivated by hatred. As leftists, we should be doing everything we can to educate them and bring them into the fold, rather than tearing them down.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 weeks ago

Well said. Education over isolation is the only way we’ll move forward.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago

I think you are being overly generous here. The number of middle class or wealthy liberals who want meaningful wealth distribution is vanishingly small. I'll leave this comment because I agree with your closing sentiment, but please be mindful of rule 3. This is a space for lefty memes, not involved political discussion, or liberal apologia.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Liberals are Centrist they've always been centrists for 400 years.

[+] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

You're complaining about making the political axis reductive and yet your entire comment completely ignores the existence of actual French leftists during the revolution. The Liberals in France might have helped to begin the revolution, and they were certainly the ones that help to end the revolution, but they weren't the only members of the revolution. They helped to murder and destroy the French left During the Revolution and in the years that came after. Surely you aren't arguing that Babeuf was a liberal? But his mere existence shows the great flaw in your theory. The French liberals were to the right of him and a number of other French revolutionaries. So how could they be the extreme radicals you claim they were?

You can only say that Liberals are the left if you're looking at it solely from the perspective of extreme conservatives and regressives. Yes if that's the only way you view history is through their eyes then everything can look leftist. That does not mean it is though. The Liberals of the American and French Revolution were those that that wished for the culmination and empowerment the burgiose. The ascendancy of the capitalist class. Nobody who works for this ascendancy can be called leftist. You're basically making the Overton window argument. That because we are at a time of extreme right wing thought that centrism would have been only moderately right wing. We know that's not true. Just look at the Shakers in England during their Civil War. A people most would classify as a Proto communist movement.

load more comments (1 replies)

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

What you are saying fits the american "liberal" label. What you are describing I would call social democrat, not a liberal. People calling themselves liberal in europe are, examples from sweden: compares public insight into publicly funded privatly owned companies to soviet, are for privatization of welfare institutions, collaborates with the far right, calls rightwing newspapers communist, and are against free speech at universities.

To be fair though, the meme is probably targeting socdems anyway so I guess fair enough.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Aren’t SocDems a type of liberal?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago

Yes. And so are non ancap libertarians.

It's a pretty broad label that covers basically everyone that believes in some form of democracy and capitalism. The combination of Americentrism and declining public education that created the "liberal is when Democrats" is... Annoying.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 weeks ago (11 children)

Liberals absolutely arent centrists, Social Democrats are centrist. Liberals are right wing, fundamentally you cannot be a leftist while supporting a "free" capitalist economy and minimal government (thats what Liberalism is).

load more comments (11 replies)

load more comments (2 replies)

[–] [email protected] 22 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

"Not like that! We meant we should debate whether trans people should exist or not! Redistributing wealth is just evil."

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

"OK FINE! You can own the means of sexual reproduction if you stay the hell away from the means of production, ya pleb!"

load more comments (1 replies)

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (9 children)

The only wealth redistribution they allow is from the poor to the rich. Bonus points if they can:

Increase tax pressure on the poor.
Make it so the poor vote for tax cuts.
Hand out said tax cuts to the rich.
Profit from "donations".

The liberal play book is so dumb and yet so effective.

EDIT: To all those that got offended by the dunk on liberals, consider this: When did your liberal government in practice and in a meaningful capacity increase tax pressure on the rich and allocate the increased funds to the benefit of the poor? Also, if you are not for more equitable redistribution of wealth, what are you even doing in this community?

[–] [email protected] 16 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

You're forgetting the vehicle of modern plundering: the Corporation

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 weeks ago

The corporation is the weapon the capitalist class uses to make liberal democracies into dictatorships of the bourgeoisie.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

They don't only exploit human resources but also natural resources and communal resources.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago

The extraction of surplus value is usually done with no regard for and to the direct detriment of the well-being of the foundation on which value is being created.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

You spelled conservative wrong buddy

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago

US liberals are conservatives where I am from.

load more comments (6 replies)

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Hear me out, this isnt a flame.

The word liberal has lost some of its historic connotations.

I am a believer in Economic Liberalism, broadly defined as;

Economic liberals tend to oppose government intervention and protectionism in the market economy when it inhibits free trade and competition, but tend to support government intervention where it protects property rights, opens new markets or funds market growth, and resolves market failures.[2]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalism

Genuine question: Which party do I vote for?

As I see it, none of them are championing economic liberalism.

Note: before someone replies with: what about climate change, inequality etc. These are market failures that Economic liberals believe should be fixed by government.

As I see it, liberal economics is politically dead.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Do you think the government should enforce some limits on wealth accumulation? Genuine question, because this doesn't appear on neither the pro nor con lists in that definition and I'd like to hear a take of a self described economic liberal on this

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 weeks ago

I don't think total accumulation of wealth would be a problem in itself IF it was taxed properly.

If I was in charge I'd do the following:

Simplify the tax code and remove exemptions.
Set a threshold for inheritance tax, say $5m, and tax anything above that at close to 100%.
Setup a department to review and adapt to tax avoidance strategies I.e. billionaires taking out loans to avoid paying themselves in dividends, which would have been taxed.
Make the tax code progressive e.g. you pay more tax the more you earn. Set this up for capital, income, pension etc. Tax it all at the same level.

I think this provides enough of an incentive to work hard but removes the inter generational plutocracy issues.

Equality of opportunity and all that.

P.S. In my opinion, the accountancy profession should not need to exist. Rules should be simple enough for an average person to follow.

load more comments (1 replies)

load more comments