this post was submitted on 29 Oct 2024
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Avatar: The Last Airbender

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[–] [email protected] 162 points 6 days ago (2 children)

No he "got away" with decades of war crimes by becoming disillusioned of the society he was born and bred in and becoming a political enemy of the state and putting his physical wellbeing at risk to free the people his country had waged war on all while mentoring the person who would take over that country and try to create a better country and a better world. One of the most poignant moments is when he says he didn't realize his visions of conquering ba sing se would be him taking it back for its own people.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 6 days ago

The Mikhail Bakunin of Nickelodeon cartoons.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Which is why this is fictional, and he's allowed to have a narrative story arc.

However, if this was a Nazi SS Officer, who fled to South America, and then went on to redeem himself by [insert narratively compelling redemption story], he'd still be a war criminal.

But again, it's a cartoon, and we don't have to treat his character as if he were an actual Imperial General commanding troops during wars of conquest, especially one from the IJA.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 days ago (12 children)

Pretty big difference in your scenarios there yours has a Nazi war criminal fleeing after the war is ended. Yeah it doesn't really hit as hard when it's after the fact and there's no skin in the game. A person who realizes his nation is wrong and fights to stop his Nation during the war has a lot more redeeming qualities than someone who claims to have changed his mind after the war is over and while they're running and hiding.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 days ago (1 children)

A sort-of close example might be Erwin R- you know what I'm going to stop myself right now because I'm in over my head and I'm about to wake up some hard-core ww2 historians with very strong opinions

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago

Before diving into the topic of if the Desert Fox committed any war crimes, or the myth of the good Nazi, you should start here.

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[–] [email protected] 47 points 6 days ago (1 children)

There's evidence he was trying to prevent worse things from happening. He hid the last dragons, he joined a extremist group, he was WAY ahead of Azula capturing him, his prison escape plan was likely a long term thought process he already had. Iroh was never going to be fire lord.

[–] [email protected] 39 points 5 days ago

He was first in line to be Fire Lord until his son died.

I don't think Iroh would have been as ruthless as his brother. But he did see conquest as a sort of duty.

But then his son died, and he realized that it was all pointless.

[–] [email protected] 44 points 6 days ago

People change, we should all learn to see people for who they are, not who they were.

[–] [email protected] 43 points 6 days ago (5 children)

I'm not sure siege is considered a war crime. Isn't that just standard medieval warfare?

[–] [email protected] 19 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

The other nations wouldn't see it that way.

There's no central authority, but it's not a machiavellian free-for-all like medeival Europe. The rest of the world was rather unhappy with the Fire Nation's aggression, even in light if the world's long history of warfare. He would be tried for that, no doubt.

And his reputation/nickname is subtext for crimes he did commit but that the cartoon couldn't spell out.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 days ago (2 children)

I mean, that's essentially saying it's a war crime to be in the military during a war. Which is kind of silly to put it like that.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

He's Ozai's brother and a general, a leader of the Fire Nation, not just some regular soldier.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago

A general isn't just some regular conscript, or enlisted soldier.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I mean really the existence of war crimes relies on the existence of treaties between the nations defining what those crimes are. Gonna guess the Fire Nation was not a signatory.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 days ago (1 children)

The Nazis weren't signatories to the Nuremberg charter, yet they were judged by it. So there is precedent for judging war crimes without pre-existing law.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I'm also not exactly sure how international law works in a world that only has ~~four~~three countries.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago

Maybe it's like original sin, and any general in the same army that destroyed 25% of the world's nations, is automatically a war criminal?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 6 days ago (1 children)

No, it's not a war crime that I can find, however we can attribute harm caused to civilians through these actions, such as starvation due to supply lines cut off. So he did some vile shit, had a moment where he realized the error in his ways, then did everything in his power to make things better.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 days ago

Except there no evidence of starvation in Ba Sing Se. After all, there was so little impact that the citizens could be convinced that there was no war.

As to supply lines, earth benders cannot be locked in by a siege. They can create tunnel networks with a literal wave of the hand.

So you're inventing crimes that didn't exist.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 days ago

Depends on the culture The Japanese viewed siege tactics as cowardly and armies at the gates would deliver food and supplies to the people in the walls. Ba Sing Se was able to convince it's citizens there wasn't even a war going on, I don't think they were starving or being killed with siege weapons.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

The source you provided makes clear that sieges are lawful provided non-combatants aren't affected (so starving civilians, barring humanitarian aid, etc. makes a siege unlawful). Furthermore, it states that sieges where non-combatants are affected were lawful prior to the 20th century.

In the context of ATLA, there's not really enough known about the geopolitics of the world to properly gauge whether or not besieging a city is a war crime. The frequency of sieges in the show (North Pole, Ba Sing Se) can't be used as an argument for their legality since they're undertaken by a state that is known for mistreating prisoners of war, disrespecting geopolitical boundaries, and so on. Regardless, you can't judge the Avatar universe by real world law.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 days ago

If they were laying siege to a military base, sure.

But they were laying siege to a city.... Maybe you should go read up on the history of siege warfare to get a better understanding of how that impacts civilian populations. Heck, forget medieval times, just look back to the '90s to the Siege of Sarajevo.

Also, prior to this 20th century, there were no Geneva Conventions, and prior to Nuremberg, no international war crime tribunals. So not sure what your point is.

Either way, it's a cartoon world. My entire point was that cartoons shouldn't be held to a standard that must reflect our reality, but that logic must applied equally. Either it reflects our reality, or it doesn't.

You can't say it reflects our reality, but because he was a good guy in the end, that negates his war crimes. That's not how war crimes work.

So, if we're discussing this in terms where the cartoon parallels our reality, then yes, laying siege to a city full of civilians is a war crime, full stop.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Varrick bombed buildings and tried to kidnap a president to start a war for profit and got away with it too.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 days ago

He did it as a capitalist though so it's no big deal.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago

If Varrick were real, he would have blown himself up because he had a hissy fit, threw his briefcase at the wall, but forgot there was a bomb in there.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Well he does leave the army and help the opposition so I'd say he redeemed himself hard

[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 days ago

Not only does he help the opposition, I'd argue he was one of the most involved people in bringing peace to the world, between everything he did to train Zuko to become a great leader and all the ways he helped team Avatar, I think the world would have turned out far darker if Iroh hadn't existed.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 6 days ago (1 children)

A war crime according to... Who? Is there some treaty or convention that happened? Is there some customary international law that he violated? I can't find the Hague anywhere on any maps in this universe but maybe I missed something.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 6 days ago

There is no war

[–] [email protected] 10 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I like how NATLA goes into his "war crimes" more.

And Lu Ten's funeral... I cried over that scene.

There's a lot to not like about live-action atla, but I was there for all the Iroh/Zuko scenes. Kinda like Book 1 of ATLA, to be honest.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 days ago

I agree, I love the change they made to include the fact that Zuko's soldiers where the same ones he spoke out against sacrificing.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Maybe not war crimes but what he did with June isn't great either

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 days ago (2 children)

He apologies for that in the comics, though many of the panels feel OOC.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago

They should have gone back and edited the show rather than do this. The Iroh and June thing was way out of character for Iroh to begin with. Likely some writer that was unfamiliar with the show and took too much inspiration from Master Roshi.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Which comic is that one from?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 days ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I keep forgetting that they're still releasing new ones. Cheers!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

New novels keep coming too!

The novels are great, TBH way better than the comics.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 days ago

100% I really digged the Kyoshi ones and you reminded me to pick up the Yangchen ones again.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago

A sige isn't actually a warcrime...

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