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Stockholm Offers Fighter Jets for Ukraine if Sweden is Allowed to Join NATO (www.nytimes.com)
submitted 1 year ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
31 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

Stockholm Offers Fighter Jets for Ukraine if Sweden is Allowed to Join NATO

The offer appeared to be the latest move in an ongoing diplomatic effort to persuade Turkey to drop its objection to Sweden joining the military alliance.

The Swedish defense ministry said on Friday it could contribute its Gripen warplanes to a Western coalition that is trying to speed fighter jets to Ukraine — but only after Sweden is allowed into NATO.

The offer, included in a $200 million package of weapons, 155-millimeter caliber ammunition and other defense support for Ukraine, was the latest move in an ongoing diplomatic effort to persuade Turkey to drop its objection to Sweden joining the military alliance.

“Support in the form of JAS-39 Gripen would be conditional on Sweden first becoming a member of NATO,” the Swedish Defense Ministry said in a statement.

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[–] [email protected] 37 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Ok now THAT is a power move I can respect. I know it’s kinda in the realm of playing politics, but Erdogan is being such a fucking tool and he genuinely needs to be taken down a notch.

If this is the thing that finally gets him to stop dicking around and undermining the rest of NATO, and gets Sweden into NATO, and also gives Ukraine a modern multi role fighter that just happens to be able to fire Meteor missiles (much of the data is classified, but it’s considered to be at least as good as an AMRAAM, with a much newer design and longer range)… well, that’d be pretty awesome.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Why would this get Erdogan to do anything though?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Because the entire rest of NATO will lean on him even harder.

Tangentially, it might be a very shrewd tactic for Sweden to offer a deal to Turkey on some fighters. THAT might be a clear enough quid pro quo for Erdogan to accept.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah, that's more the horsetrading Erdogan that I know. I don't think NATO is holding back on leaning on him, but he's waiting for his kickback.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 1 year ago

They drive a hard bargain, but deal!

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Wouldn’t that require Turkey to actually care about Ukraine? They seem perfectly happy to play both sides of the conflict.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago

Sure, but it could also lead to other members putting more pressure on Turkey to get it done.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Turkey can seem all they want, but they have a very vested interest in reducing Russian black sea influence. They care more than any other member of NATO other than Poland.

Edit: it wouldn't surprise me if they promised more weapons to Ukraine to specifically target the black sea fleet through secret diplomatic meetings, for example

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Or (positively) care about Sweden? The point of this alliance is to protect each other in case of an attack. If Turkey does not feel like risking their soldiers for Sweden, then it's good to bring that up as early as possible. Not condoning, just saying.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Wonderful paint / camo (is that camo?) job on that jet

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't know the name of it but I believe that pattern is the standard camp for Swedish military. This looks like an urban colour tone but there are Woodland and Arctic colour schemes too.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

It’s called FOA, and it’s also the base for the current M90 uniform

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:

The Swedish defense ministry said on Friday it could contribute its Gripen warplanes to a Western coalition that is trying to speed fighter jets to Ukraine — but only after Sweden is allowed into NATO.

The offer, included in a $200 million package of weapons, 155-millimeter caliber ammunition and other defense support for Ukraine, was the latest move in an ongoing diplomatic effort to persuade Turkey to drop its objection to Sweden joining the military alliance.

“Support in the form of JAS-39 Gripen would be conditional on Sweden first becoming a member of NATO,” the Swedish Defense Ministry said in a statement.

Turkey’s president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, had tentatively agreed to admit Sweden in July, on the eve of NATO’s annual summit in Vilnius, Lithuania.

Sweden’s conditional offer to give some JAS-39 Gripens also comes as NATO is racing to train Ukrainian pilots and support crews to fly Western fighter jets — what officials and experts describe as one of the few weapons systems that could change the course of the 19-month war.

But the Defense Ministry statement on Friday said that it would review the training needed for Ukraine’s pilots as well as the support that Stockholm might receive from the Western fighter jet coalition as it mulls whether to reverse course.

The original article contains 378 words, the summary contains 213 words. Saved 44%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I feel like this is more trouble than it's worth. Ukraine doesn't need to be training pilots and ground crew on two completely new aircraft that no one in Ukraine's forces are familiar with.

[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

That isn't wrong in general but Gripen are actually a much better fit for Ukraine than F-16. They were designed with being able to start and land on improvised runways and easily maintenance by conscripts out of small bases in mind.

Sweden being not in NATO basically planned with an Ukraine scenario in mind. Being invaded, having their infrastructure attacked and only getting limited support from others not wanting to actively join the fight. So operation under attack from hidden and relocating bases with minimal support was a main design goal for jets.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

F-16 is there for the standoff range via long range sensors and appropriate missiles more than operational behavior

Give them both and fit them into different roles

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Yeah, the Gripen is amazing! I suppose it's not the latest thing in the air, but Sweden has kept it updated, and it's a solid machine. It is pretty much designed perfectly for what Ukraine is facing.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago

Some Ukrainian pilots apparently finished their Gripen orientation about a month ago, according to the Swedish defence minister. The plane can operate with pretty minimal infrastructure and has a really low cost per flight hour (both in relative terms for a modern jet fighter, of course), so it seems like it's exactly the kind of thing Ukraine could do with even if it does take a bit of time to train on it

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If Ukraine gets Gripen then they get access to an air platform that can fire the best air to air missile in the world.

Meteor is deadly.

They could use F-16's in the SEAD/DEAD/bomb truck role whilst using the Gripens to shoot down russian jets and helicopters from extreme range.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Your link seems broken, here's the correct one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_%28missile%29

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Works fine here, this might be a kbin/lemmy type formatting thing going on.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Huh, you're right. But it's even just within different Lemmy apps, the link doesn't work in Sync, but it works in Boost.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This might be a good decision in peace time. But Ukraine is fighting for existence. They won't care about the most efficient approach. They will care about bring as much capacity to the fight they can. If they can't get more f16s these aircraft are likely to be welcome.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

They will care about bring as much capacity to the fight they can.

That's what I'm referring to, though. Trying to field Grippens as well will diminish their capability of fielding F16s.

We also don't know what Ukraine think of this offer at this stage, right now Sweden is trying to negotiate its way into NATO, they're interested in convincing NATO regardless of what Ukraine wants.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

We do know what they think about it. They have asked for Gripen on multiple occasions.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

Their nation is spending something like half its budget if not more on defence, they can manage a few dozen jets.

Besides, they'll have to phase out their soviet era jets at some point because of the sheer age of them soon. Those Su-24 etc airframes are probably in rough shape by this point.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Actually now that Finland joined we are surrounded by nato countries so many figure it doesn't really matter as much or changed their minds on the matter. Not that we got to vote on the matter in the first place, though.