Imagine how Apple will feel if Google got docked for this. Apple's app store is even worse. You can't even side load apps on an iPhone/iPad without jailbreak.
this post was submitted on 06 Nov 2023
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Yeah, I'm wondering why Google got targeted first for this when Apple locks down their ecosystem a lot more. Not to defend Google, I would cheer a decision to break them up.
They didn’t. Epic sued Apple in 2021. They lost. They’ve already filed for appeal. They are targeting Apple and Google for the same infraction. It’s not about the App Store, it’s mostly about the 30% commission both companies take on app sales AND in app purchases.
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Apple paid off more government officials?
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Epic sued Apple in 2021. Google and Apple removed Fortnite from their respective app stores within hours of each other. Epic was ready with lawyers and announced they were going to court. They lost the case against Apple. They’ve already filed an appeal.
You can side load them, kinda, its just a huge pain so your point still stands
Do you have a method that keeps sideloaded apps "verified" permanently? If you do, please do tell. I'd love to install YouTube++ on my kid's tablet so they don't have to sit through ads all the time.
Check out Yattee on the App Store. It's a client for Piped.
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/yattee/id1595136629
You will need to manually add a Piped instance such as piped.video
Also note I don't own an iOS device, so I haven't tried this app myself.
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Just download Xcode, it's free, and it's from Apple. With that you can deploy any app (if you have the binary - or the source code, but you don't technically need the source code) on your own devices and a hundred other people's devices (it's supposed to be work colleagues, but your kid's tablet will work too in practice, who's going to check or care?).
You can also "sideload" your app to up ten thousand devices linked to other Apple IDs via TestFlight which also a service run by Apple (for a nominal subscription fee) and intended for developers to test apps that aren't ready for distribution yet, though that process does require a partial review by Apple (it's mostly just an automated malware scan, not a full app review). It's perfectly normal for an app to be in development for years without going public. Most apps I've written have never shipped, but I still use a few of them on my own devices.
As for getting a copy of YouTube++ from a reputable source, that doesn't contain malware... that's basically no different from downloading software for a Mac or PC. Be careful where you download it from yeah?
Generally though, using Xcode is safer than using AltStore since you haven't jailbroken your device and all the sandboxing/etc is still in place. I'd be more worried about malware infecting your Mac when you load it into Xcode than I would about the iPhone (though it certainly could contain a zero day that escapes the sandbox).
If the Google Play store is a monopoly, then what the fuck is the apple store? At least on android you're not forced to only use the play store if you choose, unless you do some sketchy shit to your iPhone, you're stuck with their store only.
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How could it be? Most Android manufacturers, including Google, allow you to use other app stores.
If anyone has an Unjust Monopoly in this space it's Apple. (Though I think it's unfortunately more complicated than that, as much as I'd love to see Apple forced to let other app stores on.)
The Play Store is installed by default, and doesn't allow other app stores to be listed. So the only way to install another one, is to go out on the net and download an APK directly. When you try to install it, the system gives you a warning that it can be dangerous. Just those two hurdles are enough to ensure the vast majority of users will never leave the hurdle-less Play Store.
Surely the warning is justified though? Yes it's a hurdle, but it seems reasonable and other platforms also warn users about apps from unverified sources, so it is common within the industry. If the play store is determined to be a monopoly, and gets broken up or off, I think a warning would still be warranted.
The default install thing used to be an issue, i.e. MS Explorer, but people seem to have stopped caring since all OS's now have pre-installed junk.
I guess the argument could be made thst the play store should allow downloading of other app stores? I'd be in favor of that, but I don't know if the courts can force something like that.
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The Play Store is installed by default, and doesn't allow other app stores to be listed.
Not saying it's much better, but my phone came with the playstore and the "Galaxy store"... now there isn't a lot of useful stuff in the Galaxy store, but you can wager money against other players in games of solitaire, bingo and bubble pop... so there's that at least...
And? For anyone who actually wants another app store, that's not exactly a high bar of technical know-how. In fact, for the most part it's the way stuff works on other platforms as well (provided you even have the option of choosing on those).
If you want to install Steam on Windows you need to download it, click through, and run the installer.
Linux may have snap etc, but to add unofficial software channels you need to manually edit things.
Apple straight out says "nope" on iOS unless you jailbreak.
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Imagine how untenable Apple's position would be if the Play Store is proven to be a monopoly.
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It's a monopsony - a monopoly from the other side.
Google Play Store is not the single seller of apps to users but a single sensible buyer from developers. Of course with most apps being free of change, "buyer" and "seller" are loose terms to satisfy the definition.
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It wouldn't hurt forcing them to allow other app stores to be listed in the app store.
Microsoft was considered a monopoly for including internet explorer with windows, despite the fact you could still install a 3rd party browser.
They weren't considered a monopoly for including IE, they were considered a monopoly for very much being the dominant OS and then were abusing said monopoly to block competing products or standards.
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Technical characteristics like Android making it hard or impossible for third-party app stores to auto-update, as well as restrictive agreements with phone manufacturers and carriers are pretty damning. Google deserves to lose based on that, however,
their devices sometimes warn that the “file might be harmful” and require settings to be changed to allow “unknown” apps
Chrome on Windows warns that a .exe download might be harmful. Chrome on Linux warns that a .deb download might be harmful. We have a long history of malware using drive-by downloads or trying to pose as non-executable file types as evidence that these features are in the user's interests. At most, some rewording of "unknown" sources might be in order.
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For everyone in the back of the room, monopoly in the context doesn't require to literally have no other choice. It's enough for the alternatives to be impractical as in not widely used in practice.
Well that's an easy one then, if that's true.
Especially for Apple phones, damn.
Yeah it's pretty obnoxious how much control the app stores have.
It does make device security easier, but
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It's such a monopoly!! Epic Games decided they don't want to pay Google a 30% cut so didn't put Fortnite on the Play Store, and now they have absolutely no way of making an Android version! (/s)
What's up with Apple not allowing sideloads? They also have an app store, AND don't allow installing from outside of it. Users can only do that if they hack their devices. You can kinda de-Google stock Android, and disable all Google apps to not show up, and install a third-party store. You can fully de-Google it by rooting. There is a literal button to unlock the OEM, and then you can unlock the bootloader, and root or install a custom OS. Sure, it's not that easy, but you can. No matter how scary the warning is that it gives at boot, it's still an intended thing. Just because it gives a warning when you install an *unsigned app, it isn't a monopoly. Windows SmartScreen also does it when an app is unsigned, and the install anyways button is hidden behind a more details button.
Ok, it can't auto-update without root and Play Store doesn't allow other app stores to be put on it, I just don't understand why they are targetting Google out of all things.
They could make a section in the Play Store that lists other trusted app stores, and maybe even allow downloading them directly from the Play Store, but I can't decide if they should manually put them there, allow free submissions, or allow submissions while still having to pay. And they should make implementation of auto-updates for non-system apps easier.
This is definitely not an unjust monopoly tough.
Epic games decided they don’t want to pay 30% of every transaction to Google or Apple. They sued Apple already and lost. They’ve filed an appeal, so we will hear more on that soon ish. I’m not an epic fan at all, but 30% of all sales is ridiculous. Epic themselves take 12% on the epic store. Valve, Apple, Google—none of these companies should get a third of the sale price for everything sold through an app downloaded from there store. Not just the price of the app, but all app revenue. Every in app purchase. All of it.
The $25 registration fee is just for the account. That’s negligible considering Apple charges $100 a year. It’s the commission these companies take that epic is suing over.
The Epic Games Store isn't profitable so it may not be a good example for how fees should be set.
Also, Epic is trying to argue lower fees would benefit consumers but games generally aren't cheaper on Epic's store than on Steam.
Yeah I mean they're handing out games for free left and right, their store sucks, their reputation sucks (both among gamers and most devs), of course they're not making a profit. Their 12% cut is only able to about cover costs because it doesn't include transaction fees and while I'd like Stream to lower their cut they're providing a fuckton of service for devs and the health of the wider ecosystem. I'd wish Gabe would finally figure out succession, though, e.g. make Valve a foundation, think Zeiss or Bosch, to make sure it stays bound to statutes instead of finance for eternity.
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Because as you said, it's impossible to create an alternative app store that works and auto update like the Play Store does.
Google has is in a duopoly with Apple for smartphones OS. They are abusing their dominant position on mobile OS to ensure a dominant position on mobile app stores.
That's exactly what the antitrust laws are about: abusing your position in one domain to kill competition on another.
Yes Apple is worse, that means the situation needs to change on both platforms.
It's COMPLETELY possible to have an alternative app store that does these things. You could install F-Droid on your phone if you so wished right now. Many phones have Samsung's app store baked into them. Amazon also have an app store.
It would more correct to say that Google preinstalls Play store and enjoys the power of the default - this stuff is in all their licensed phones, it does the job and vast majority people lack a motivation to use anything else. But if people were motivated they could do something else it since the door isn't completely closed as it is on many other platforms.
I think this is just Epic getting pissed that they either have to agree to the terms of using Play, including give a cut of in-app purchases or go it alone and do their own thing. They could even have their own app store if they wanted - who knows if they had better terms than Google then maybe they could attract other games onto the platform, or find some other model, like curated subscription based gaming.
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What am I missing? You can download other app stores like Aurora or F-Droid do what's the monopoly?
Right? This should be squarely aimed at Apple rather than Google. Google certainly makes it a little difficult, but unlike Apple it's at least possible to do through official features without literally hacking the device.
Epic is suing Google with claims that Google has a monopoly on their App Store. It will likely not be successful.
Epic already sued Apple 2 years ago with an incredibly similar trial. Epic lost that trial, but has filed an appeal, so they may get their day in court again for that one.
The complaint is that epic started allowing its Epic Direct Payment service through Fortnite on mobile. Google and Apple both take a 30% cut from any sales through their App Store. Apple pulled Fortnite from the App Store basically immediately. Google followed suit several hours later.
Epic expressed their intent to sue both companies immediately. They likely were prepared to litigate, knowing the two would not be happy. I do think personally that 30% is a ridiculous amount. Valve also takes a 30% cut from games sold on steam. I think that is criminal for all of these app stores.
I’m not an epic fan, but they only take a 12% cut on their store, so I have to applaud them for that.
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Google enforces the installation of the crappy side bar google feed if you want to ship your phone with Google Play and Gapps
It also includes some other wacky tacky tracking and data collection bs, and some magic legal licensing stupidity that basically lets google control your software packages with what must be installed as system apps.
Google spent the past decade basically ensuring no competitor app store succeeds. No OEM uses Aurora, and only FOSS people use F-Droid. Samsung Shop is also a joke.
Anytime OEMs even try to make an alternative function, Google hangs their Gapps policy over them and prevents them from ever releasing into the market. Most notably affected are most of the Chinese brands which also got slammed by US government bans. "China government surveillance" is not an excuse when gapps literally do the exact same thing.
I think the last phone I ever had that had its own unique android apps and tools was the LeEco Le 2/S3, which came out in 2016. Nowadays, you can't even use allegedly superior RCS without google's crappy Gapps messages app.
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Google Play is a monopoly in practice, but it's not like other app stores don't exist and might even be preinstalled. Samsung's store is baked into their phones. AOSP forked firmwares (Kindle, Baidu, LineageOS, etc.) might not have Google apps at all. But even on Google android phones, Amazon Appstore, Samsung Galaxy Store, F-Droid etc. can be sideloaded. Even apps like Netflix are turning into app stores to give away stuff with a subscription. Any APK at all is available to sideload assuming someone wants to.
So it's a defacto monopoly and perhaps it is intended that way by Google knowing few people will bother to install anything else even when the door is open to do it. Is it any different from most other platforms though? Apple is completely shut. So are XBox, Nintendo & Playstation. Even Windows has a preinstalled appstore that Microsoft is pushing hard with things like Windows S ("safe mode") to stop people from escaping.
As for Epic, I think they're just pissed that Google wanted a quid pro cut of the profits. They feigning shock that in return for putting Fortnite in front of a lot of eyeballs, promoting it, facilitating millions of download/installation/updates that Google would want something in return. Epic demonstrated they could sideload Fortnite via an APK downloaded from their store so they can pick their poison - distribute a game entirely for themselves, or do it via a store subject to the terms and conditions.
This might all become irrelevant in March/April 2024 once the European Digital Markets Act (DMA) kicks in. Apple will have to allow and even enable side-loading on their junk. Both Google and Apple will have to allow third-party payment services and reduce their cut from 30% to (IIRC) 15%.
But if a court in the US makes the right decision, it might have an additional ripple effect. 🤞
There is a kind of precedent for this actually, back in the 90s when Microsoft got dinged for bundling internet explorer with Windows. This feels like it's basically the same thing.
There are monopolistic things about the Play Store, but compared to competing platforms it's a lot better than most. Android allows you to install apps from outside of the store without any extreme hacks. Contrast that vs iPhone or game consoles.
But yes, the fact that Google doesn't want anybody else to have official stores bundled on Android/Play-services supported devices is a huge anticompetitive action. Also, the Play Store does get some premium support from the OS.
But I've used 3rd-party stores in addition to installing direct-downloaded apps and the workflow isn't bad at all. I just wish you could whitelist a domain when using the browser, so I could say "I only want to download APKs from HumbleBundle.com since their app is gone" without opening up APK installs from all domain names in the browser. Possibly some kind of store-signature system would be better for this instead of controlling by installing app.
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Chinese Android phones came bundled with third-party app store. Huawei, after US embargo, still has strong presence in Asia even without Google Play Store. Xiaomi has GetApp, Samsung has, too.
Apple, on the other hand, would not let you sideload apps.
It is difficult to see the case for this compared to Alphabet's monopolistic hold on searches, and their extremely pervasive power to place ads.
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