Biden said this was a line Israel should not cross.
I look forward to his ignoring this and sending more weapons, and ordering the US military to fly more drones over Gaza.
this post was submitted on 15 Nov 2023
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Is Hamas not the slightest bit culpable for using a hospital to stage militant operations? I think they are.
Is it not a brazen war crime to use the sick and injured as a human shield? In fact, it is.
Hamas militants should be nowhere near any hospital, school, place of worship, or other place where civilians and noncombatants may be gathering. To use places like this as a base of operations is both cowardly and completely against international norms and laws. The IDF would have zero justification for any military operation at Al Shifa Hospital had Hamas not made the horrible decision to use it, and the suffering people within it, as a shield. For context:
The Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their Optional Protocols of 1977 (the main treaties of International Humanitarian Law – IHL) set a range of minimum standards for the conduct of hostilities. They are based upon the fundamental principle of distinction between civilians and other protected persons, on the one hand, and those who take part in hostilities (combatants for short).
The term “civilian” refers to individuals or objects (e.g., premises) that do not have a direct role in hostilities (See Rule 5 and Rule 9 of the Study on customary international law by the International Committee of the Red Cross – ICRC). An attack against a civilian person or object is therefore generally a violation of IHL and may constitute a war crime. A person or object can however lose its civilian status if it starts making an effective contribution to military action. It would then become a legitimate military objective (and hence a target) (See Rule 10 of the Study on customary international law by the ICRC). This determination must however be unequivocal: when in doubt as to whether a school or hospital has become a military objective, there is a presumption that it retains its civilian status.
Even attacks against legitimate military targets must, however, follow two additional principles: 1) the principle of proportionality – whereby an attack that would cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated, is prohibited (See Rule 14 of the Study on customary international law by the ICRC) – and 2) the principle of precaution in attack – which states that constant care must be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects. All feasible precautions must be taken to avoid, and in any event to minimize, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects (See Rule 15 of the Study on customary international law by the ICRC).
Hamas are certainly not ignorant of this, and so they must know that by using the Al Shifa Hospital as a strategic location they are deliberately putting a target on it, so why would they do it?
Hamas 100% wants to provoke IDF killings of Palestinian civilians. This is not a shock, this is how modern guerrilla/terrorist/resistance wars work (pick your adjective).
The Vietnamese resistance under Ho Chi Minh were the most masterful recent practitioners, but the IRA, LTTE, etc also deployed this.
Israel is playing into Hamas's hands and will get about as much benefit (reputationally and politically) from killing Gazans and razing their homes as the US did in Vietnam.
No one here at all says that. What people are saying is that those in the hospital should not have to pay for Israeli shit or for Hamas shit just the same
Obviously I agree with that. I think all sane and reasonable people agree with that.
At the very least, civilians should have somewhere to go to escape from the fighting, and the sick and injured especially should be able to seek treatment in peace.
Make no mistake though: if Hamas really have been using this hospital as a strategic location for keeping hostages or other militant activity (so far the publicly available evidence suggests that they have been, though, you know, fog of war and all that), then what they are doing is cowardly, shameful, harmful and criminal, as they would be knowingly putting patients in harms way by essentially inviting proportionate counter-operations on the hospital from the IDF.
Is Hamas not the slightest bit culpable for using a hospital to stage militant operations?
Sure, but the difference is that that the IDF is actively murdering with weapons that we are giving them.
Also, if Hamas is subject to the Geneva convention then they are a legitimate state authority. Are you sure you want to take that position? Because it means that literally everything that Israel is doing in Hamas is a war crime.
When asked by reporters at the White House what his message to family members of hostages was, he said: "Hang in there, we're coming." [...]
White House spokesman John Kirby told reporters on the presidential plane, Air Force One, that intelligence confirmed the militant Hamas group, which rules Gaza, used tunnels underneath Al-Shifa and other hospitals to conceal military operations and to hold hostages.
I'm not sure how you interpret "we're coming" by Biden regarding hostages that US intelligence says are being held in the hospital currently being raided, but it certainly doesn't seem like Israel is doing this at odds with Biden's intentions.
If anything, Biden's red line of "hospitals must be protected" seems like it might be behind the IDF claim in the original article of:
The IDF forces include medical teams and Arabic speakers, who have undergone specified training to prepare for this complex and sensitive environment, with the intent that no harm is caused to the civilians.
We'll see what the next few hours hold, but Biden's comments just a few hours before and the US intelligence publicly weighing in certainly looks like this is intended to be a hostage rescue operation which the US is at very least aware of if not actively involved in.
It's absurd to claim that IDF wants "no harm to civilians". They wouldn't be bombing residential neighborhoods on the scale they are if they had that goal.
“Over 100 dead bodies” are still inside the hospital decomposing with no way to get them out. This is fucking horrifying to watch. Even IF there is a command center under the hospital this is the wrong way to address this issue, but Israel is too fucking angry and blood thirsty that they don’t even care. They did it today and they’ll do it again tomorrow. The article says “they were given 12 hours to evacuate” but if those instructions are anything like what they’ve been doing the entirety of the month they were vague and probably not even sent out 12 hours prior because nobody is going to find out. Fucking the evil is what this is. Nothing like punishing women and children for someone else’s actions.
Even IF there is a command center under the hospital this is the wrong way to address this issue
Given the US's comments in the past 12 hours it looks like this is intended to be an attempt at a hostage rescue. We'll see how it plays out, but it's quite unusual that you have both US intelligence publicly agreeing with the claim that hospital is being used not only operationally but for holding hostages, and then just a few hours ago Biden has a message for the hostages' families of "we're coming."
Its worth reading/watching into past high profile hostage situations. I have a few yellow flag concerns, but The Operations Room youtube channel is really good for this
The reality is: Once you get away from the movies, hostages die. It is about minimizing loss of life, not preventing it. And the US in particular has taken a very strong "we don't negotiate with terrorists... unless they are wihite" since the republicans sabotaged Carter.
So acknowledging that an ally will be doing an assault and that intelligence feels it would accomplish something is pretty normal.
Calling the shot? That is fairly atypical, but there is also no chance of stealth in this situation. Al Shifa is deep in Gaza and Hamas have sentries. This is WHY "we don't negotiate with terrorists" because bum rushing is really the only chance.
At which point, the optics of "We are going to rescue those hostages" in the face of "We are going to lob large bombs at any terrorist we can find, no matter how many babies they duct tape to their chest" is a choice.
I've generally assumed that the majority of the hostages taken on the initial attack are now dead and have been for some time. The offer of "70 hostages" by Hamas suggested to me that 150+ were already dead.
We'll see how the operation plays out.
Part of my surprise at the US statements is the high potential for the whole thing going to shit and catching the blowback. The Hamas spin team have already managed to get several headlines of "Hamas blames Biden/the US for what's happening at Al Shifa" because of those comments.
If there wasn't some kind of strategic win on the table that the US administration was attempting to connect itself to for credit after the fact, opening itself up to the potentially large political loss if the operation goes south seems plain stupid.
So my guess is still that there's a real goal of a politically beneficial outcome for the US at the end of the operation such that it motivated preemptive involvement.
Edit: As for "calling the shot" - that's literally part of the international law. For going into the hospital that's being used for military ops by an enemy not to be a war crime IDF needed to provide advance notice of an operation, give Hamas the opportunity to cease activities, show demonstrable proof it was continuing, and then go in while taking every effort to minimize civilian casualties.
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Relevant bit of information:
“Israeli army spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner told CNN the hospital and compound were for Hamas "a central hub of their operations, perhaps even the beating heart and maybe even a centre of gravity."
The U.S. said on Tuesday that its own intelligence supported Israel's conclusions.”
centre of gravity
For those who are confused by what "Centre of gravity" means in this context:
Center of gravity (COG) is a military term that refers to the source of strength, balance, or stability necessary for a military force to maintain operation.
I guess its true then. US and Isreal never lies...
Good thing Hamas only tells the truth! /s
This has nothing to do with hamas. In general, hamas is either a terrorist organization, or a military resistant. In both case, you don't expect anything from them. Most of the resistant groups or terrorist organization are not expected to tell the truth or be expected to respect international laws.
Isreal, is "recognized" state and government by many countries, they have trades and embassies around the world and part of the United Nations.
When they work so hard to show media "proofs" of a calender posted on the wall, a few guns in the MRI machine rooms, and no sign of it being the center of gravity and they get caught lying by their own videos they published then maybe we should consider them a terrorist organization as well and treat them like that. Maybe we should sanction any one sending them money.
If they are that confident they should show the world evidence, which regardless of what they found, doesn't mean they can commit war crimes.
Here’s my understanding of what you said.
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We expect Hamas to lie and disrespect international laws because they are a resistance group or a terrorist organization.
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Israel is different because they are “recognized” as a state by the UN and should be held to a different standard.
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You believe the IDF lied in their PR videos and we should consider them a terrorist organization.
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We need to see more and better evidence to back up IDF claims, but regardless of what evidence they produce their actions are war crimes.
With that understanding, I would like to add that Hamas is also a political organization and the ruling power in Gaza. No one can hold a position of authority in Gaza without the consent of Hamas. Hamas also has offices and leadership throughout the Middle-East. Two prominent examples are in Doha, Qatar, and Cairo, Egypt.
Just to be clear: your reasoning here is that if a murderer hides out in an American hospital its totally legitimate just to blow it the fuck up to get at him, right?
No, that is not what I said and not what I believe.
Al Jazeera cut the feed to a journalist interviewing a man in the hospital who complained about Hamas using it as a base
Hospital based Hamas "command centers" are starting to feel like "al Qaeda second in command". Seems like they are magnetically attracted to ends of American ordinance.
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Yeah... and there were WMDs in Iraq.
Even if Hamas has a command center underneath the hospital, it doesn't justify killing civilians inside the hospital.
Edit: clarification of my point
Nor did they kill civilians inside the hospital.
While we can't 100% say they don't have a command center underneath the hospital, Israel's evidence so far has been fabricated. The video claims a random calendar is a guard shift list, for example.
Edit: Typo.
To be fair, the HM has said it's a regular hospital shift calendar but hasn't been able to explain why it starts on 10/7 and is titled with Hamas' name for the attack. And it's kind of hard to think of a valid reason, especially when considering all the other evidence along with it.
That's even worse
Asymmetrical warfare relies on keeping a civilian population between you and your enemy.
At this point I think we can safely conclude that Hamas doesn't care if Israel collectively punishes Palestinian civilians any more than Israel cares when Hamas lobs rockets at Israeli civilians - that is, they don't like it when it happens, but it happening will in no way persuade them to stop.
Logically, it's an impasse, the consequence of which will be the eventual extermination of the Palestinians- an outcome that Bibi seems not to be bothered by at all
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Less than an hour earlier, around 1 a.m. local time (2300 GMT), a Gaza health ministry spokesman said Israel had told officials in the enclave that it would raid the Shifa hospital complex "in the coming minutes."
The fate of Al Shifa has become a focus of international alarm because of worsening conditions in the facility in recent days with global calls for a humanitarian ceasefire after five weeks of an Israeli assault on Gaza.
The military added: "The IDF forces include medical teams and Arabic speakers, who have undergone specified training to prepare for this complex and sensitive environment, with the intent that no harm is caused to the civilians."
Israeli army spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner told CNN the hospital and compound were for Hamas "a central hub of their operations, perhaps even the beating heart and maybe even a centre of gravity."
Palestinians trapped in the hospital dug a mass grave on Tuesday to bury patients who died and no plan was in place to evacuate babies despite Israel announcing an offer to send portable incubators, Ashraf Al-Qidra, Gaza's health ministry spokesman, said.
International Criminal Court prosecutor Karim Khan said in an Oct. 30 statement on attacks on protected sites such as hospitals that Israel would also "need to demonstrate the proper application of the principles of distinction, precaution and of proportionality".
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