It's always important to take a step back and consider that the mega-rich exist in a totally separate reality than the rest of us do. They were raised in a way that they were never forced out of infancy into adulthood like the rest of us were. I hope that eventually we realize that it's not responsible to allow major institutions to be under the control of adults whose worldview has never progressed since the time they were toddlers.
this post was submitted on 16 Jun 2023
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Hey, sorry y'all had to defederate from our server.
I guess I thought I understood what that meant, but I somehow didn't quite grasp that we can both still subscribe to third party communities like here at [email protected], and continue to interact indirectly through those channels. So the whole defederation thing matters even less than I thought it did.
Sorry to be off topic but some people at lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works might benefit from seeing this explained.
just an FYI, despite you seeing their comment, they can't see yours.
Ok I see. And the reason for that is because beehaw has defederated my server, but my server has not defederated beehaw, correct?
Kinda confusing, I guess I thought of federation as a bilateral agreement for some reason, but actually each instance unilaterally decides who to federate with, and its not always reciprocal.
Yes. Think of it like blocking someone. beehaw defederated from sh.itjust.works so they can't see anything from sh.itjust.works. not comments, not threads, not communities. 100% blocked. whereas the reverse isn't true. you're not able to get communities or content from beehaw (because they blocked and aren't sending it to you), but their comments and threads elsewhere in the fediverse are still shared with you. This thread is hosted on lemmy.ml, so everyone federated with lemmy.ml can see it and interact with it; this is why you can see the beehaw user's comment.
However, since beehaw defederated with sh.itjust.works, your reply remains unseen by them. sh.itjust.works could mutually defederate/block beehaw and you wouldn't see the comment. but that's up to your instance whether you wanna do that or not.
Ok thanks for explaining. I don't see any reason we would defederate beehaw, they only blocked us because trolls were signing up on our server and spamming toxic stuff to their communities. Totally understandable, and hopefully we can reconnect with them once this platform matures a bit.
I know some people on lemmy.world were discussing defederating with beehaw because they were thinking it was annoying/confusing to have beehaw stuff show up even when beehaw defederated with them (and thus results in situations like this).
personally, I'm of the philosophy that it's good to federate with as many instances as possible. and that's how kbin has been doing things so far. other instances may wish to intentionally select which instances they federate to craft particular experiences (like what beehaw did). just depends on what you're after.
I feel like even though this is all pretty chaotic in the short term, it feels like it could be a pretty good learning experience for the strengths and weaknesses of federating in general
I love you for explaining this so clearly, I was actually so confused about this I may or may not have misinformed someone else, oops.
Hate to be the one to break it to you, but they can't see your message. Check it from the beehaw instance yourself.
this helped clarify something for me. which was whether it just nuked the replies to the lemmy.world/sh.itjust.works comment, or only that one comment. seems like it just removes the entire chain.
Ya, it also works that way if you block someone too. Unlike Twitter/Discord which show "you've blocked this message", on here they simply don't exist, nor do any replies to them.
I'm not really in the mindset of blocking people, but that's good to know.
Wow. That is a truly horrendous interview. This saga just keeps getting better. That interview is somehow the absolute worst thing he's done so far, and he's pulled a lot of shit.
The only thing more gross than Elon Musk is an Elon Musk imitator. He's just. so. angry.
For me he's also stupid, I mean, you're managing one of the biggest websites in the world and you don't know accessibility is an international standard?? You need "guidelines" before you know what you should implement in your own official app? (he said this during the AMA) Come on ...
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The Verge interview is Here
The tl;dr is it's the AMA part 2: electric douchealoo
These people who are mad, they’re mad because they used to get something for free, and now it’s going to be not free.
I just can't believe that a CEO of a company who doesn't pay their moderators would actually say something so tone deaf.
And blatantly false.
Huffman has argued the changes are a business decision to force AI companies training on Reddit’s data to pony up
LMFAO that ship has fucking sailed. They already used Reddit data through 2021 and got everything they needed for free. Huffman is locking the barn after the horses are already out, and setting it on fire. What a fucking dumbass.
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Folks have made millions.
It sucks to be you, Reddit.
It's hilarious how people have literally paid app developers for a better way to experience reddit and he's mad about that. Like sorry you're a talentless hack. The only reason reddit is as popular as it is was down to the stars aligning back in the digg days. That's about it, first mover advantage with your only other competitor shooting themselves in the foot.
I used most 3rd-party apps for Android and the official one is simply the worst.
Lemmy clients are already better than Reddit's official apps.
You're right about the first mover advantage: there was a small time window in which Reddit was the town square of the Internet, but it turned to shit when the brass decided to milk users like data money cows.
The 9to5mac article has just the right amount of spiteful contempt. Nice.
He is so out of touch.
My first comment in the entire fediverse will be:
FUCK U/SPEZ
Balls in his mouth
I'd hate to be that guy
Truly
R.I.P. Reddit.
what a prick
It’s funny how he’s playing this out to be about third party apps like Apollo. Like yeah, that’s what the community cares about, but the reason they’re making the changes is because he’s fucking anal about OpenAI and other companies finding such success with products they have built using data scraped via the Reddit API.
He wants some of that money, not the comparatively tiny amount that Christian got from Apollo.
He also doesn’t seem to get that people root for an underdog. Had he been more serious about how they are upset that companies use their API to build massive tools that they can sublicense to other companies, like Microsoft, and make lots of money, people might agree with that.
What he’s framing it as though, is a big company like Reddit vs small indie app developers, like Christian Selig. Guess who the underdog is in that scenario, Hm?
Dude could literally invent a developer program to help support “sanctioned” third party devs that pay some sort of a yearly fee to access the API and raise cost like he is now to fend off LLMs. But nah, I’d expect that out of somebody that is actually wanting to solve the problem. Lol
They kinda already have something along those lines, or at least it's in the works. I'm pretty sure that's what Devvit is supposed to be, but rather than actually finish that project, they'd rather crusade against the Apollo app for some reason
That sounds unnecessarily complex. Just force an authentication of the client (ergo, make it so you can't access the API without logging in) and add api rate limits per user, maybe with higher limits on users that have the paid Reddit membership tier.
But I don't think that was the point anyway. It's less work to just start charging for the API. That way they can charge companies like OpenAI, and drive others to use their main app, letting them sell targeted adverts to them too.
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But yeah keep going back to their site and watch their ads, that'll show them for sure.
Or, you could do what I do - use [https://old.reddit.com](Old Reddit) with an ad blocker. That hurts them on two levels -
- They have to pay for you to use the site and,
- Their ads are blocked.
Could also keep using 3rd party apps, apparently all those API calls are costing them millions.
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You want to swap the order of the text and the link there in Markdown. This:
[https://old.reddit.com](Old Reddit)
Yields this:
[https://old.reddit.com](Old Reddit)
Whereas this:
[Old Reddit](https://old.reddit.com])
Yields this:
Spez is already talking about monetizing users account histories. Just blocking the ads isn't going to stop them.
I mean, I get that Reddit isn't making money. And that during the growth phase of a dot-com, it's okay to burn money in the name of growing the userbase, but that he has to transition to making money at some point. Investors gave him money, hundreds of millions, if I recall correctly, in the expectation that he can generate a return. He's getting near the point where he has to do that. And the return they're going to expect is going to be in the neighborhood of what other dot-coms can generate from their investment.
Like, the people yelling at him for being "greedy" in that he's aiming to make Reddit generate a return at all aren't realistic. That is something that always was going to have to happen, from the day that Reddit started. If you look at the issues that the moderators are taking up with him, they're trying to come up with a way that Reddit makes money and their concerns are also met.
The problem is that some of the moves he's making to try to make a return have really negative impacts, and a number of people want something that has less of a negative impact.
If the Fediverse can support similar functionality based purely on cash donations, or based on some other model (e.g. Usenet runs on software developed by the community, but generally one has to pay a commercial Usenet provider for service to cover the costs), or a "users donate resources" like BitTorrent and provide a better experience, then that's great. But the Fediverse is also going to have to figure out how to handle the costs of hardware and software development and all that, if it wants to be a competitive alternative. There are some hard questions that may come up down the line for the Fediverse too. The long term for something the scale of Reddit cannot be Earnest paying all of the money out of his personal pocketbook to Cloudflare to handle ramping up kbin's capacity or something like that from the main Lemmy instance operators.
Right now, I haven't seen any ads on the Fediverse, and I haven't yet donated money to Earnest (though he apparently does have a "buy a coffee" tip jar and people have sent him small gifts). Which means that right now, I'm relying on the gift of resources from Earnest and some Lemmy instance operators to me. Maybe they can afford that for a small number of users. But end of the day, if many more users show up, they are going to have to find someone else to help bear the costs on an ongoing basis.
But he has so many better options. He could listen to his userbase and create a product they enjoy. Then explain his cost and ask for donations on the site (with a progres bar as wikipedia does). If you have goodwill in your userbase, you could even just ask people for money in a monthly fashion and give them some "Reddit Supporter" badge. Maybe a "Reddit Supporter" can then vote on the functionality that will be implemented in reddit.
If he'd communicate it well, he could even monetize the API fairly (let's say 1-2x the ad revenue he would get with similar traffic) or monetize it on the user side (user has to pay e.g. $10 for yearly api key).
I can say for myself I'd be more than willing to donate to reddit if they asked for it and I had the feeling they were actually trying to listen to the userbase and improve the platform.
With his current behavior he's just destroying any good-will of the userbase and therefore any direct monetization potential.
Any capable ceo worth their salt had to be thinking about this BEFORE their first round of funding, not 10 yrs later when they are “about to ipo”. Part of acquiring large amounts of funding is working thru these problems and having a concrete monetization plan. This isn’t something new and every single startup on this planet contends with resourcing and money. This problem isn’t unique to reddit and is a solved problem by other social media companies.
If it’s serving ads and selling user profiles, be transparent about it. Mandate 3rd party apps to serve ads meanwhile reduce the need of a staff to try and come up with a god awful app that can’t load a video. Pour said money into infra-scaling instead.
Use differential privacy policies, obfuscate private data and inform + ensure users that the data being sold is to generate revenue so that the site can stay in the green and go public AND that their privacy is first and foremost. You can literally invent GDPR like privacy controls and STILL monetize user profile while keeping users happy.
If I can solve this in 10 mins, Huffman doesn’t get a pass for being an idiot. Sorry, don’t mean to sound ranty and aggressive but any sort of justification for reddit is really defending malice on his part and I feel like this needs to be said, particularly to an audience that are (rightfully so) perhaps giving him the benefit of the doubt when they don’t know any better.
Hope this helps paint a better picture of why I keep calling this guy an idiot. :-)
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And don’t post anything - contribute nothing.
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I use old.reddit on computer with ublock origin, I don't even know Reddit has ads, been visiting for 10+ years, never saw single ad, same on mobile where I use Boost + Adaway or Kiwi browser + uBlock origin, I will see how the 3rd party situation works out
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I appreciate his contribution to growing the fediverse everyday with all these gifts.
My jaw dropped reading the verge interview. Insane.
How not to CEO 101
Most CEOs would pretend to care or be concerned even if they didn't change paths lmao
What a myopic ding dong
So an ad click costs advertisers ten times as much as an ad view/impression. Trick is that you need to view the landing page and follow at least 1-2 links on the server. If you really want to wreck reddit and raise this a few orders of magnitude higher. Go back to reddit and start clicking ads, follow links and close the page, or even next level, directly type the address of a major competitor to the ad generating company and go to this address next. Then delete your cookies and site data. If just 5% of us did this, it would wreck reddit completely over night.
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