this post was submitted on 27 Jan 2024
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Why switch?

I played with the idea of switching for quite a while. Having switched my daily driver from Windows maybe 6-9 Months ago I made many mistakes in the meantime.

Good and bad

This may have led to a diminshed experience with ubuntu but all in all, I was very pleased to see that Linux works as a daily driver. Still, I was unhappy with the kind of dumbed down gnome experience.

Problems

There were errors neither I nor people I asked could fix and the snap situation on ubuntu (just the fact that they’re proprietary, nothing else).

Installation

Installing debian (and kde) was easier and harder than I expected. The download mirror I used must not have been great although its very close to my location because it took ages although my internet connections is good.

Apps

Since I switched to Linux, I toned down my app diet a lot. Installing all my apps from ubuntu was as easy as writing a short list and going through discover. Later I added flatpak which gave me a couple apps not available through discover (such as fluffychat). The last two I copied directly as appimages.

Games

I was scared that the „old kernel“ of stable debian would be a problem. As it turns out, everthing works great so far, a lot better than on ubuntu which might or might not be my fault.

Instability

Kde does have some quirks that irritate me a bit like installing timeshift (because I tried network backups which dont work with it and the native backup solution does not seem to accept my sambashare) led to a window I could only close by rebooting.

Boot time

What does feel a bit odd is the boot process. After my bios splash, it shows „welcome to grub“ and then switches to the debian start menu for 3 seconds or so, then shows some terminal stuff and then starts kde splash and then login. This feels a lot longer than ubuntu did. Its probably easy to change in some config but its also something that should be obvious.

Summary

So far I‘m incredibly happy although I ran into initramfs already probably because of timeshift which I threw out again. I might do a manual backup if nothing else works. My games dont freeze or stutter which is nice. All apps I had on ubuntu now work on debian and no snaps at all.

TL;DR: If you feel adventurous, debian and kde are a pretty awesome mix and rid you of the proprietary ubuntu snap store. It also doesnt tell you that you can get security upgrades if you subscribe to ubuntu pro. Works the same if not better.

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[–] [email protected] 52 points 9 months ago (6 children)

Ubuntu is a great gateway distro. When I dumped Windows back in the Windows 10 days, Ubuntu made it an easy transition, time elapsed and there were things that didn't work right that I found frustrating. I eventually ended up trying out Fedora and the rest was history. I'm glad you found a good fit for you.

[–] [email protected] 38 points 9 months ago (13 children)

These days, Linux mint should be recommended for people coming from windows. I rate their desktop environment and intuitive style better and faster understandable for people coming from windows compared to ubuntu. If a person always wants the newest stuff recommend OpenSuse Tumbleweed now, since it a is rolling distro but very stable and you don’t have to use Terminal at all, there.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I agree. It was a good gateway for me as well. We will see if debian is the end but so far it looks promising.

One thing I do find odd in my linux experience is that I find myself wanting to track down every last bug in my system (fruitless most likely). It has bothered me in ubuntu and now with debian I also want pretty much no warnings in my syslog if possible. We‘ll see if that works.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The fact that you report bugs you find makes you nothing short of a legend.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago

Thank you very much. This made me smile. Being kind to others makes you the same btw. :)

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Devils advocate here, but what makes Ubuntu a great gateway distro nowadays?

When Ubuntu came out it had a graphical installer and UI improvements allowed users to do more without the terminal. I feel like at some point other distros caught up and Unity was the unique selling point. Then canonical became more focused on the server and killed Unity. I am not sure what is the selling point of Ubuntu as a desktop in 2024.

This all comes from my personal experience of Ubuntu being my main distro for 10+ years. But when I started distro hoping I realized there wasn’t much difference between Ubuntu and other distros nowadays.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

It used to be at least, but I'm not so sure that it still is. I've been using Linux full time for over a decade, mostly Xubuntu but also other distros and vanilla Ubuntu. Last year my wife decided that she wanted to ditch Windows for good so we installed Xubuntu on her pc, her netbook and our new htpc, and I was surprised that we ran into so many different issues. I could solve some of them but I think it would be much more difficult for a first time Linux user, and potentially give them a bad first impression of Linux OS:es.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

What kind of issues did you run into if you don't mind me asking? I jumped ship from Ubuntu just when they started with the snap nonsense, so things I found egregious, like them dropping Unity, aren't really valid in the grand scheme of things.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Small disclaimer: I'm not claiming all these issues can be said to be 100% Ubuntu's fault, but if recommending a distro to someone who wants to try Linux for the first time they probably won't care about anything other than the compound experience. I used Xubuntu for many years and remembered it as very stable and the vast majority of things being easy and working out of the box, which is why I was so surprised that I had to spend hours troubleshooting various things that I never had problems with previously.

Some issues and annoyances I remember off the top of my head:

Unable to wake computer after monitor turning off due to inactivity. Happened to all 3 computers which have very different hardware, which seemed a little strange to me. Did some troubleshooting on my wife's desktop PC and IIRC it appeared to be the program which would ask for your password crashed, causing the computer to turn off the monitor signal again. Uninstalled the xfce4-screensaver package and disabled password on resume on her PC which fixed it there, but her netbook needs to have password and I think it still sometimes has this issue (she doesn't use it very often). On the htpc I both uninstalled xfce4-screensaver and disabled all monitor power saving, but recently it has started turning off the monitor signal after inactivity anyway. At least it always wakes up from this state.

However, the htpc sometimes fails to wake up the monitor/tv after hibernate. The computer wakes up but the monitor doesn't, and the only solution I know is the following procedure: Wake the computer up, press ctrl-alt-f1 to switch to a different vtty, press the keyboard shortcut to hibernate the computer, wake it up again, press ctrl-alt-f6 to switch back to the graphical desktop. For some reason that works..

Every time the htpc wakes up from hibernate there's a notification saying something about the computer being reconnected to the network. There's a button on the popup for "don't notify me about this again" but it makes no difference, the popups keep coming. Can ofc. be disabled entirely from some other settings, but it's not working as expected.

Watching movies in Kodi doesn't work. It starts playing it without sound, then it begins to stutter after about 10 seconds and it gets worse until Kodi freezes entirely. Haven't had time to properly debug it, but it worked just fine on Arch (which I wouldn't recommend to a beginner for other reasons :)) which the previous htpc had. Instead we use VLC for the time being.

We watch various series on youtube and dropout.tv so we have a browser tab permanently open for each, often with longer episodes paused in the middle. About once per month there's a popup telling us that we must close the web browser so that snap can update it. The popups don't time out, and need to be clicked to go away. If you click to ignore it too many times it will forcibly close eventually. Occasionally this causes the web sites to forget what we were watching, and it can take a bit of time to find out where you were in a 3 hour D&D actual play. Probably snaps working as intended but both of us find it annoying.

Over all our Brother laser jet + scanner is great with Linux, but I had to spend a few hours to get all features working on my wife's PC while it was pretty much plug-n-play on my current install of Fedora KDE.

Wife's PC had issues with monitors losing their relative position and orientation. It might've been triggered when one of the cables glitched a bit, and it doesn't happen now that they're screwed in properly, but I think the OS ought to remember the configuration better. It also moved the monitors so they weren't adjacent, which made the mouse pointer behave very weirdly when moved between then until she rearranged them in the settings.

There were some other things that I'm not able to recall right now too, nothing too serious for someone with Linux experience. My wife used Ubuntu at university so she's not computer illiterate, but I don't think she would've had the time and energy to spend hours troubleshooting issues, searching online and digging around in config files, so she probably would've switched back to Windows since it mostly worked for her.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Bloody hell, that's a tremendous post. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

I can totally see why anyone would abandon Linux with those problems. But at least now we all know just to send you round if anyone is having problems 😏

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Fortunately I dislike Windows so much that I'm willing to spend a few weekends helping someone switch to Linux, especially if it's my wife :D I'm also realizing I might've skipped a step in the conversation since the person I replied to was talking about Ubuntu, and it's possible that at least some of those problems were specific to Xfce. In my mind I reasoned "I used to think that Xubuntu would be a solid recommendation for a beginner since I had a good experience with it in the past", and it sounded like others were saying similar things about Ubuntu. Since I discovered that Xubuntu now had a lot of non-trivial issues I had to deal with, I was kind of thinking that it might be the same for vanilla Ubuntu.. Or not, it might still be easy to use and a plug-n-play experience for beginners :)

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (7 children)

You could try Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE) it has timeshift installed in the live iso, useful to restore a system when it's unbootable. Anyway it doesn't come with KDE but Cinnamon or XFCE.

For me Debian or LMDE is good for a home server due to not continuous package update, just major security an important ones.

For a Deskop or laptop in my opinion Fedora KDE or Gnome is the best experience.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Please report back in a few weeks and a few months, and maybe even a year or two down the road.

Generally "I'm really (happy/upset/confused/sad) with it" after only a day isn't really good feedback for people thinking of changing, but it does provide a good baseline to measure against once you're more familiar with it, and getting glimpses into your learning curve might be really helpful for people looking for advice on which OS to go with.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I run Debian since 1998 and am happy.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Unfortunately Debian stable doesn't ship our bugfix releases after the major Debian version gets tagged - KDE Plasma in Debian is currently at 5.27.5, and 5.27.10 was released upstream two months ago.

In other words, you'll be experiencing bugs that have long been fixed... I'd advise to stay away from Debian for KDE Plasma because of that. If you want a Debian based distro with a good KDE Plasma experience, KUbuntu is likely a better choice, even with forced snaps. If you don't need Debian though I'd recommend taking a look at Fedora KDE or Arch (derivatives).

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Thanks for the heads up. I do get that faster updates mean a lot to some folks. There is always an argument for more up to date software but one needs to compromise sometimes. Using debian has been great so far and its working better than ubuntu (which might be a configuration issue). I'll update if stuff starts breaking.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Man, I feel you. Sometimes you just want to get on with your life without babysitting the OS. Debian will stay out of your way and just work. Enjoy it!

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Ubuntu is Debian anyway. Why not installing MX (based on Debian too) with XFCE, it is the best experience I have had.

I come from good old LFS from the 90s and for me, a distro is just a kernel with some GNU utils, a window manager, and a way to get packages (which is about the only diff between "distro")

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Makes sense. This is also what I deduced after installing arch in a vm. Its basically just a couple options. It would be awesome to have a distro where you can just mix and match all the things.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Thx for the post. Nice reading your experience.

Fluffychat flathub https://flathub.org/apps/im.fluffychat.Fluffychat

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

After my bios splash, it shows „welcome to grub“ and then switches to the debian start menu for 3 seconds or so, then shows some terminal stuff and then starts kde splash and then login.

Yeah, the reason for this is that sometimes Debian doesn't enable Plymouth splash screens by default, so you just see the text stuff. It actually annoys me a bit.

Not on my computer at the moment, so I can't remember the exact packages you might need, but if I recall, they should be plymouth-themes and kde-config-plymouth (so that you can choose the splash screen theme in your system settings). You can also find other themes online, but I forgot the name of that website where all the stuff is. Pling? I think it's that.

Anyway, once you have the themes installed, you need to sudo edit /etc/default/grub and append "quiet splash" (with the quotes) to GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT= ("quiet" might already be there).

You can also change the value of GRUB_TIMEOUT= in that file to whatever your preference might be for the duration of grub's boot menu, but there might be other things you need to adjust in order to hide it completely and still be able to access it if necessary.

After that, run sudo update-grub so that it's using the new config and choose whichever theme you want in the system settings.

Alternatively, grub-customizer is a GUI app that you can install to do all of the above (which will also update grub when you save your changes). Just don't touch anything that's not relevant. Stick to just the duration of the grub boot menu and add the splash parameter. Ignore boot priority, etc.

It should feel less "slow" to start up once all that's sorted.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I have been happy with Pop!_OS but the idea of LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition) is very tempting.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I have not tried pop os yet. Whats the selling point again?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago (3 children)

The biggest is the baked in support for nVidia GPUs, but their DE has a lot of work done to it for usability purposes. No real advances have been made over the past few years to really set it apart again, but there is a massive overhaul coming that will make it one of a kind again.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago (1 children)

(begging forgiveness, I haven't read the comments yet).

Regarding backups - I started with using Ubuntu and its Backup application. This application is a front end for a command line package called Duplicity. One of the things that annoyed me about the backup app was that I couldn't work out how to reschedule the scheduled backup.

Taking control of my own backup setup was the answer. Learn about bash scripting so you can create a short bit of code to handle your backups. Read up a little on duplicity, read up a little on mounting remote file shares, read up a little on setting up an ssh key for encrypting your backup.

This may be an heretical thing to say but I found ChatGPT quite useful in answering these questions (as always with anything you get from an LLM, double check it's answers against reliable sources).

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

KDE is the default DE for Debian these days?

[–] [email protected] 21 points 9 months ago (15 children)

No, gnome is. But debian in opposition to ubuntu gives you a choice at install. You can use gnome, kde, cinnamon and a couple others which I forgot.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 9 months ago (1 children)

debian in opposition to ubuntu gives you a choice at install

That's nice.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Indeed. It feels very mature and no nonsense like, all over. The only thing that bothers me a bit are some „qol things“ like being able to switch mirrors if you made a bad choice or to easily choose german keyboard while leaving the OS in english for easier troubleshooting online.

So the pattern here seems to be „debian shows that it is community made and you can help make it better in opposition to ubuntu which is commercial and your participation helps both the community and the company“

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (7 children)

It also doesnt tell you that you can get security upgrades if you subscribe to ubuntu pro

Wow, do Ubuntu not have security updates in the "free" version?

[–] [email protected] 17 points 9 months ago

Sorry, I meant „Additional security updates“. its not very useful for normal users and canonical is targeting enterprises with it but looking at it every day without a non hacky way to disable it just wore on me.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

They do, including those that are in Debian, but they also have an additional source of faster security updates developed in house, which they hold back from the free path in favor of the pro package.

Personally, I feel a bit torn about this. On the one hand, this should be, officially at least, purely an additional service on top of what's available in the baseline distro, and isn't taking anything away from that.

On the other hand, I strongly disagree with holding back security fixes from anyone, ever, for any reason. Also, the claim that it will never take away anything from the free base distro is at least a little bit suspect. I would not be surprised if the existence of the pro path were to gradually erode the quality and timelyness of the base security upgrade path over time. Also, Ubuntu is now very annoying about nagging you to upgrade to pro, and the way to disable that is fairly involved and very much non-official. The whole thing goes against what I expect from a F/OSS operating system. I don't quite understand why this topic hasn't been a much bigger issue in Linux circles yet. It certainly doesn't sit right with me...

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Not that I'm a fan of Ubuntu here (I generally don't run it when I can run anything else), but I do want to say I think you've missed the point of the Pro tier.

Ubuntu releases two stable versions a year which are supported for 2 years or so. This is like a slow rolling distribution, and makes the newest software's available. It receives regular security updates from upstream, from Canonical, and from backports, again for up to about 2 years. Most users install this version.

Ubuntu LTS editions are similar to the above, but receive all the same security updates for 5 years instead of 2. These distributions are generally targeted for Enterprise users who value stability over having the newest software, and for whom upgrading comes with significant time, expense and risk. The 5 year window is customary among other distros, and is largely supported by and throughout the Dev community.

Ubuntu LTS Pro editions extend the LTS support editions for an additional 5 years, meaning a Pro distro enjoys 10 years of security updates from upstream, backports, and from Canonical where needed. Canonical might even open source their fixes back into upstream for other maintainers and distros to use, depending on the situation. However, since Canonical is providing the work, they charge subscription fees to cover their costs for it from their target audience: Enterprises who can't or REALLY don't want to upgrade

Why an Enterprise might not want to upgrade has to do with risk and compliance. Corporate IT security is a different world, where every bit of software may need to be reviewed, assessed, tested and signed-off upon. Major software upgrades would need to be recertified to mitigate risk and ensure compliance, which takes significant time and expense to complete in good faith. Not having to do it every 2 or 5 years is money in the bank, especially when the environment doesn't introduce new requirements very often.

Canonical is meeting a market demand with their Pro tier by allowing these customers to spend a fraction of their recertification costs on a software subscription. It's overall good for the ecosystem because you have what amounts to corporate sponsors pumping money into keeping older packages maintained for longer. This let's them keep using the same software distro all the rest of us can use for free.

I'm not shy about calling bullshit on ANY distro that operates in bad faith, and they all get into some BS from time to time. Nevertheless, Canonical are acting in good faith on this, and are merely collecting money for their time and skill to provide maintenance on FOSS packages that might otherwise go unmaintained.

tl;dr: Pro tier is for Enterprise customers who need extra-long term support and are willing to pay for it. Canonical is meeting a market demand so they can remain competitive for use in those environments, which is good for everyone. It's benign. Keep the pitchforks sharp and the torches dry for another day.

edit: typos

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Pro tier is for Enterprise customers who need extra-long term support and are willing to pay for it. Canonical is meeting a market demand so they can remain competitive for use in those environments, which is good for everyone. It’s benign

Then please show me the button (and I mean button, not command-line exclusive settings or config file entries in /etc, and certainly not unofficial trickery like third party repositories that replace Ubuntu advantage packages with an empty decoy) that says "Thank you, I don't need Ubuntu Pro, please stop nagging me about it".

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago

Oh, I never said they weren't absolute prats about invading user space with advertising their bullshit. The Lens fiasco, Snaps, the popup warnings in apt breaking scripts, and the lack of UI toggles to easily disable those nag messages are all reasons I run other distros. There's a big Mint colored button to turn on the Ubuntu experience without the nagging.

You have other choices that do no not shove that bullshit in your face. Canonical is gonna canonical. Nobody said you have to play their game.

My point was they are not withholding anything community-based from anyone. They are entitled to charge for their original work, even they are pushy about it. They even abide by the license and distribute it the changes when complete, but they're not gonna just do it for giggles.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

The additional Ubuntu Pro security updates are also open source, which means open source maintainers are free to adopt them for the regular security updates (and some do).

If Canonical didn't charge for those additional security updates they wouldn't be able to pay for developing them, which would result in only core packages getting patched again. Also it's possible to make an account and get them for free on a few devices, so it's really not so bad. This way of doing things is better than what RedHat is doing with RHEL.

If Canonical restricted maintainer from applying Canonicals patches, I'd change my opinion. For me I don't need security updates that badly, so I'm fine with Debian, NixOS (or Ubuntu non-Pro).

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago

That would be all absolutely fine and dandy if I could easily just opt out in a way that makes the system stop bothering me about it. But I can't.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (9 children)

All of them receive security updates.
Wether you're a pro user or not only matters if you're an LTS user.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The title of that article does not support its conclusion. Lazy pasting what I commented the last time I saw this.

Nothing has changed for LTS at all. Scroll down to the pretty graphs on https://ubuntu.com/about/release-cycle, and pay particular attention to how the ratio of orange to purple on the LTS graphs has changed over time. (it hasn't) The base LTS support window has always been 5 years, and the extended window has always been another 5 years.

What they did add was additional security updates for Universe packages, which are represented by the black line. Note that this black line is independent of the LTS coverage. From https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/ubuntu-pro-faq/34042:

Your Ubuntu LTS is still secured in exactly the same way it has always been, with five years of free security updates for the ‘main’ packages in the distribution, and best-effort security coverage for everything else. This has been the promise of Ubuntu since our first LTS in 2006, and remains exactly the same. In fact, thanks to our expanded security team, your LTS is better secured today than ever before, even without Ubuntu Pro.

Ubuntu Pro is an additional stream of security updates and packages that meet compliance requirements such as FIPS or HIPAA, on top of an Ubuntu LTS. Ubuntu Pro was launched in public beta on 5 October, 2022, and moved to general availability on 26 January, 2023. Ubuntu Pro provides an SLA for security fixes for the entire distribution (‘main and universe’ packages) for ten years, with extensions for industrial use cases.

You can also dig into this AskUbuntu answer for even more details, but the long and short of it is this has no impact on Ubuntu LTS whatsoever. Keep using it if that is your thing. Keep using something else if it is not.

This old news will become newsworthy if Canonical starts shifting packages out of the main repo and into universe, which would in fact reduce the security update coverage of LTS releases. That said, the article has not asserted any evidence of this. Nothing to see here...for now.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago

you hit apt update and get an add for Ubuntu pro. Invasive ads in my linux? no thanks.

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