this post was submitted on 18 Jun 2023
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Lemmy.World Announcements

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[–] [email protected] 71 points 1 year ago (17 children)

One thing that’ll need serious consideration:

I feel like it’s inevitable that Lemmy will get an advertisement module that admins can enable. Alternative monetisation methods can also work, such as subscriptions. But users will have to realise that servers aren’t free.

If you’re an admin for a small community and are willing to carry the burden: great. If you’re hosting a community that can support itself by donations: also great. But sooner or later we’ll need some ways to make servers sustainable.

(Not a fan of advertisements and would prefer to be a paying user, but as Lemmy takes off we shouldn’t look down on admins trying to mitigate their expenses).

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I will tell this nonstop, online advertisement (as a form of monetization) is pretty damn dated nowadays. You could give them literally a dollar every year and they would make more from you than serving you ads.

Unpopular opinion: I kinda feel like a reason ads are so popular nowadays is because it gives the user a way of feeling they are supporting a product/creator by doing pretty much nothing.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

I'm thinking about creating my own personal instance hosted on maybe a RasPi or something, just for myself. It would cost very little (RasPi and Domain name are already laying around unused..).

It might not be the fastest, and if my internet is down then the instance won't be available (but then again I'd be the only one using it anyway).

But I'm still trying to figure out other pros/cons with that approach.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

How are fediverse admins currently funding their instances?

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Thanks, I have another question: what kind of web hosting tier do you need in order to have the functionality needed to host an instance? I was fiddling with infinityfree and found that there are all sorts of minor functionality you need beyond just a catchy name in a domain that won't have a bad reputation to host an instance. I mean, besides electricity costs, labour and some old hardware you have lying around to use as a server, how much is that hosting expected to cost?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

If you wanted to self host Lemmy is very lightweight. The general consensus is you could get a cheap virtual host for $5-10/mo

That would cover yourself and a few friends. Now, if Lemmy were to really get popular your database would grow in size so youay have to get more storage later but it's overall very inexpensive to do it yourself.

That said, major instances like Lemmy.world could charge their users $1-2/mo and probably be fine (this is napkin math). Long story short nothing is free, even if it's relatively inexpensive. We need to create a community that is willing to pitch in a few cents for freedom. I don't think that's too much to ask, otherwise the ad model comes into play and the place goes to shit.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Beehaw was running on a 96€/month VPS and temporarly upped it to 336$/month to handle the reddit implosion.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ooh, that's less than 5c/user/month, this can totally work without overloading with ads.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

I fully support that idea. Nothing comes free and as a lemmy.world user I’m using lemmy.world resources to browse lemmy.ml pr whatever. It’s only fair that I fund this server to do it’s work in some way.

As long as we aren’t charged for getting the content itself.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Just having ads is not a problem.

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[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Not exactly. Lemmy has separated the developer role from the admin role.

From a developer role, Lemmy is going to need to figure out a way to scale up development. Two full time developers isn't going to be enough to get Lemmy to a position it can compete against Reddit or the next Reddit. Lemmy is rough around the edges and needs work; it needs to develop ways to incorporate code from others.

From an admin role, the various servers are going to need to solve major issues, including how to fund server costs. We are also seeing the fraying of the federation model as different admins have different goals for their part of Lemmy and these goals clash with each other.

There is going to be a ton of growing pains, and some of them are going to come from the fact that there isn't a CEO of Lemmy to choose which way to resolve problems.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago (2 children)

From a developer role, Lemmy is going to need to figure out a way to scale up development.

No they don't. The platform is open source, so the more users they have, the more of those users will become contributors.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago

Yes they do. This is why some FOSS goes to places like Apache, why there's a Python foundation, Spark has Databricks, Kafka Confluent and Trino Starburst.

The good thing about open source is that it allows everyone to contribute code to the base. The bad thing about open source is thay it allows everyone to contribute code to the base.

You need repo maintainers, developers that are constant contributor, code reviewers, people maintaining CI CD Pipelines, etc etc.

Yes it's less than having proprietary, but it's nowhere near "0".

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

But how is the organization going to handle and review all this additional code? You can't just trust someone coded something correctly without reviewing the code.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I feel like it’s inevitable that Lemmy will get an advertisement module that admins can enable. Alternative monetisation methods can also work, such as subscriptions. But users will have to realise that servers aren’t free.

If you’re an admin for a small community and are willing to carry the burden: great. If you’re hosting a community that can support itself by donations: also great. But sooner or later we’ll need some ways to make servers sustainable.

(Not a fan of advertisements and would prefer to be a paying user, but as Lemmy takes off we shouldn’t look down on admins trying to mitigate their expenses).

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 year ago

It's called decentralized

[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You’re posting this on lemmy.world. The owner of this instance, the biggest new instance, is literally building out a business of instance hosting.

If this goes well, and his business grows, it will have chief executives.

[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 year ago (2 children)

But there will be other instances. If this one does something stupid, then we go to another one and miss almost nothing.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

That's a bit like saying "Yeah so we don't care what reddit does, because you can always go somewhere else"

It's the biggest instance, so it's where most of the community and content would be etc etc. Just like what happened with beehaw could happen to world as well. This is only true for a mature decentralized federated ecosystem with a lot of redundant communities so that if one goes down you can easily consume the same content from a different instence. Is that the case now? I would say no, so it's even less leader-proof.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

Lemmy is perfectly fine with beehaw defederating.

There is certainly the risk of a single instance dominating. But even now there are a few significant instances and losing beehaw didn't ruin anything.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It's definitely good, but it isn't full proof. Nothing is.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

r/boneappletea

Sorry I couldn't resist

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago (3 children)

CEO-Proof, but not Lazy-Instance-Owner-Proof. ahem beehaw ahem

[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 year ago

Beehaw's choice was Beehaw's choice, and reading through their reasoning for it, I can understand why they'd defederate with the current influx of users seen.

And that's the point and their right- we all have the choice. If you're unhappy with a server's federatipn choices or user base, you can move to an alternative and still federate with the other servers for content.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago (2 children)

But then you just use another instance. As long as it stays decentralized, it will be robust. If one instance takes over, then it's no different.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Does not have CEO, yet ...

But I can solve that. From now on I will take that burden.

Refer to me as super cool Lemmy CEO

First order of business, I command you lemmings to vibe.

Stay tunned for upcoming changes !!!

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Lemmy.world might get a CEO, but it'll be different then the Lemmy software (which is open source) and it appears to be possible to migrate off of a given instance if this one gets unreasonable

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

This. Even Lemmy could technically get fucked over

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago

Not CEO-proof until user and community migration by individual is possible

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (3 children)

This is what I like about Lemmy and the fediverse; Its not like some rich company or person could really take over Lemmy and then pull a twitter or a reddit. The only way I could see things going south is if corporations start buying popular instances and then creating terrible policies and/or mine all of the data collected in the Lemmy instance, but with Lemmy you could just move to another instance.

Right now I feel like were in the same position when Linux started out - really cool in concept but with no clear way to monetize which causes doubts for its future. It wasn't until RedHat really popularized the support for enterprises model that Linux really solidified its future; they found a way to monetize open source projects. Lemmy itself is very young and will need to have its RedHat moment, otherwise its doomed to fail -- donations are nice but are never enough.

As a side note to this - I find it funny that companies are super eager to replace people at the bottom with AI when in my mind it would be easier to replace a CEO with AI to ingest company data and make cost-cutting decisions, or to be able to look at the market and determine what a company should be doing in order to compete. CEO positions are the most expensive for a company so eliminating it with a machine would save investors TONS of money. It would never need meetings, just take in input of whats going on in the company and externally in its competing market.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

We'll need someone to input that data, I guess we'll need to create a new position for that.

I shall be the CAIIO (chief AI input officer) and may salary will only be $150m.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hey that's a lot of work for one dude. I'll be your associate. I shall be the ACAIIO and my salary is twice as much as yours because of the longer title

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

Every platform/service/product that is owned by a single company is eventually going to breakdown and turn into the worst form of itself. Companies are driven by this fiscal quarter being better than the last and it is inevitable that eventually quality has to go out the window to increase profits. The only sure-fire way to "reset" quality or force the company to ensure quality is to not monetarily support them. But with the internet, that is very difficult to achieve with having so few platforms that connect us all owned by companies. The only answer on keeping the internet a quality space for socialization and connecting with each other, is decentralization.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)
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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

And with the exodus of users from Reddit to Lemmy which created a significant base of decentralised online community, we just witnessed history where human beings achieved the next level of freedom of expression free from manipulation by a handful of powerful individuals

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

NoCEOShitification

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (15 children)

I'd say "sort of." Lemmy as a software is under a classic benevolent dictator situation. It's open source but as long as the lead devs remain two people we are kind of at their whim. Yeah someone could fork it but it's the same issue of you're now at the whim of that person keeping their fork up to date and what they want to do. Until they kind of allow more people having a say on the main repo it's up in the air what happens truly.

We've seen this same situation with Emby to Jellyfin. Where the open source project gets so good it goes close source, becomes a company and leaves everyone scrambling to get people to help work on the last bit of open source code. Meanwhile Emby just used their huge install base to upsell people. Jellyfin is still trying to get full parity with Emby despite Jellyfin having thousands of contributors and being open source. It's hard to keep up with well funded innovation compared to volunteer work.

[–] alansuspect 6 points 1 year ago

I jumped ship from Emby to Jellyfin a long time ago. Just looked at their site now: "Purchase Emby Premiere and receive additional bonus features such as Cover Art, Mobile Sync, Cloud Sync, and free Android apps." Pretty sure you get all that in Jellyfin already.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

So who actually owns the server this instance runs on? Doesn't it just mean they do whatever they want? So confused

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (5 children)

There are a ton of Lemmy instances that all communicate with each other and each instance is ran on hardware by different owners. So if one instance goes to shit your account will still work on all the other ones.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Unspezzable.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

One issue that I don't think Lemmy has tackled collectively is the licensing of the user data. Lemmy is open source and that's one crucial part of the enshittification resistance equation. The other is doing the equivalent for the user data. If the user data is licensed under the right version of the CC license, it will ensure that it can always be copied to another instance in cases of instance enshittification. As far as I know, there isn't anything about who owns the user data. That defaults to every author having copyright over their data. While this means the instance owner can't sell it without permission from every user it's also not conductive to moving bulk data across instances. Individual migration would improve this significantly but I believe we should switch to having user data licensed under some CC license too.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

i hope it stays that way. i'm sick of these ceos and their garbage :/

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