this post was submitted on 02 Nov 2023
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Baker's testimony shows that Mozilla depends so much on its deal with Google for revenue that "the biggest loser of a DOJ win in the Google case would be Mozilla."

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[–] [email protected] 163 points 1 year ago (3 children)

People who use Firefox probably also have some gripes against Google's work, but I sure as fuck don't want anything to do with Yahoo

[–] [email protected] 60 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm fine with Firefox getting paid for the 2nd step of the install being changing the default search to DDG.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

the duck is always getting better, while the goog is always getting shittier

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[–] [email protected] 83 points 1 year ago (4 children)

As a FF user: Mozilla has such a small market share now, they should experiment with search. Maybe don't make another "deal" with another ad based search engine, but invent your own decentralized search or mozilla search or whatever.

[–] [email protected] 65 points 1 year ago (3 children)

While I’d prefer the do that also, I think the issue is that Google pays them so much, they couldn’t afford to exist without it.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I mean, they could. They have been cutting costs in the wrong areas, though - those harder to replace if exgoogled. There's plenty of unnecessary fat in Mozilla as an organization. They have been doing lots of expensive (in terms of developer and testing resources) unneeded crap (apparently to support the appearance of relevancy, which is different from relevancy itself), they also don't need that many management people.

Let's please remember how Mozilla started. Yes, a browser back then and a browser now are two completely different things, but the imbalance in resources has always been there. It's just that now they are spreading resources where they shouldn't, to imitate Chrome in things secondary to a browser itself. They don't have the resources for that even with Google, and of course they won't otherwise.

Also supporting something like XULRunner or in general olden times Gecko would help, so that people could use FF's engine like they still do with Chromium and Webkit. That would increase the amount of people contributing in various ways.

That's how I see it, my humble opinion and all that.

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago

It's pretty much their only revenue stream, considering they give all the software away and don't have ads in the browser.

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[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 year ago

That's the core of the trial though, right? That through these deals and other things Google does to stay dominant, they stifle the market for competition. Ie Edge, Chrome, and every other Chromium-based browser pushes Google to the end users and FF pushes some unfamiliar search platform, then there's an uphill, arguably unfair, battle for it to gain enough market share to be sustainable.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (5 children)

The only reason that would work is if they used user search data to sell to advertisers or show ads themselves. That's how Google search makes money, but it's antithetical to everything Mozilla is trying to market themselves as: a privacy oriented browser.

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[–] [email protected] 67 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Just don’t use gogle.

“Google's core argument that its search engine wins default status due to its quality, not due to anticompetitive behaviors.”

Then why pay Apple 20 billion for default star?

[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The answer is because someone else will

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

The biggest risk for Google would be for Apple to enter the search market. It’s not hard, as proven by smaller players like DuckDuckGo, but it’s risky enough that Apple takes the 20B and consider it a good deal.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It’s still the best search engine in my experience. I’ve tried using bing and DuckDuckGo. They just don’t cut it and the ai stuff isn’t particular impressive to me. Google just understands the power of defaults

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Have you tried Kagi? The search results seems to be a lot better than Google. I'm able to find what I need using search terms that would only returns spammy e-commerce results on Google. I'm on a trial account but so far I'm impressed and might consider getting a paid family subscription if my wife also like it.

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[–] [email protected] 49 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Asking the real questions.

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[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Boo fucking hoo. Mozilla isn't a saint and could benefit from a shake up as well. Mozilla's dependency on Google is dangerous for all of us.

The biggest loser if the DOJ doesn't win is literally everyone.

I will bite whatever bullet I have to if it means the end of Google hegemony.

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[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 year ago (4 children)
[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago

Most people tbf

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (14 children)

Another interesting comment Mozilla's takeaway from the experiment was that Firefox "users made it clear that they look for and want and expect Google.”

[–] [email protected] 56 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

that's not really Mozilla's fault, users are too locked into Google and that's ultimately Google's fault.

Although I don't like at all that Mozilla is funded by Google and testified in their favor.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I saw it more as testifying about why they did what they did

Ultimately the message is still 'we had to use Google to survive, they have that much control over the space'

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

I'm of two minds. I use Firefox for privacy reasons and don't use Google if I can avoid it, but I have to admit that chrome was leagues better than other popular browsers at the time. It's no accident that they ran away with the market share even when IE was on everyone's computer by default.

Now they've gotten huge and their search engine has gone to shit. So it goes with infinite growth. I'm with Firefox for now, but I've learned the hard way not to totally trust any piece of software.

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm surpsied (but obviously shouldn't be) that that many potential users would instantly bounce off Firefox instead of changing the default search engine.

[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Honestly, the association with Yahoo just makes the platform look like a joke. Like, the first time you do a search and it pops up as Yahoo your first instinct is thinking you're using the wrong thing.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

Yup it could be literally anything else but yahoo

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

It's not really that surprising that the average user wants the most popular search engine instead of yahoo (of all things) baked in, whatever your views on Google.

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[–] [email protected] 32 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I don't understand what's going on with her hair.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Kind of looks like she fell asleep watching a toddler, and it decided to cut her hair.

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[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago

Is this the same CEO who fired the entire documentation team and then gave herself a raise?

[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Is! Yahoo! still! a! thing!?!

[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I wouldn't be surprised if it's because their stock data and viewing is pretty mature and a lot of people would go for that alone.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (4 children)

We all know somebody who never stopped using their embarrassing email address from the 2000s. It's all their fault

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I still use my Hotmail address but it's only for signing up for stuff. It's spamtown in there.

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The CEO short-term logic makes sense: Yahoo search = Lower cost = Higher profit margin = Happy shareholders = Happy CEO

But she forgot that: Yahoo search = Shit

And then it happened

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Really? All this over something that is very easily modified by the user?

[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 year ago

Don't underestimate the combination of lazy and stupid.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

Most people really don't care what browser or search engine they use as long as it gets the job done. I wouldn't call it lazy or stupid, it's just the reality of humans who have to pick and choose what they spend energy on. Yahoo search has been around a few years longer than Google and it sucked (and still sucks), that's why people decided it was worth going elsewhere. If you're going to try and wrench people out of their comfort zones, you've gotta put on a better first impression.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah... And what about the 60 millions users lost since 2019? Will Mozilla find someone else to blame?

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

Where's Jeeves when we need him? I'd ask him but…

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

Google is starting to yahoo itself. The search is optimized to drive purchases and not actually finding what you want. That and delisting of some sites in the search results. Try finding a direct link to Trump's social media in a private window on Google vs on duckduckgo. Did he just break that gag order? Google doesn't want you to know!

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

If you have a few bucks, Kagi search is awesome and you can customize domain rankings.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Amazing that people would run away over that. People really are Luddites.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Luddites didn't oppose the technology itself, but the distribution of the profits it brought and were fighting for workers' rights.

https://thenib.com/im-a-luddite/

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