this post was submitted on 13 Jan 2024
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No Stupid Questions

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[–] [email protected] 79 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (6 children)

You're going to get a LOT of reductive and low effort answers from Lemmy radicals. But this is a super complex question, and there's not a 5-second ELI5 answer if you really want to understand.

Also, when the radicals scream at you, there's going to be a core of truth. They're going to yell about colonization and empires. That's a major factor, but not an exclusive one. However, for getting radical and rabidly furious its all they'll bother posting to you.

Things to investigate, because answering this for yourself in a meaningful way is going to take a while and require study. Here are some topics but NOT an exhaustive list:

  1. Colonization

  2. Resources (natural and otherwise)

  3. Schooling, education, etc.

  4. Stability, politically and otherwise (note this will have overlap with colonial and non-colonial powers destabilizing things intentionally for geopolitical gain)

  5. Infrastructure (transportation, economic, water, medical, etc.)

  6. Medicine as regionally practiced, traditional vs based on the the scientific method.

  7. Geopolitics (isolationism, etc)

  8. Geography (i.e. the US's greatest asset is its location, it neighbors no enemies and its main enemies are separated by an ocean. One of the key reasons the US focuses on the ability to project force)

  9. Religion

  10. Corruption (politically and non politically)

  11. Crime and non-military/nation based violence (also could get grouped under personal safety and security)

And again, honestly, a lot of these topics will overlap, but that's what I mean by there isn't a quick, easy answer.

And the reductive stupid answer is just yelling colonialism.

There's a reason people get PhDs in this subject. It's not a quick, easy question.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 9 months ago

Actually, you're just reducing complex issue of exercising power over other countries to "colonialism" than trying to criticize people correctly recognizing this issue as "radicals". Most of what you listed can be directly linked to western countries destabilizing other regions by military or covert actions, installing puppet governments, using their influence to steal resources and keeping other economies in check so that they don't develop into competitors. No one thinks that it's all because some country was a colony 200 years ago. Western influence never really ended in most of those countries and that's what is keeping them down.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 9 months ago (4 children)

And the reductive stupid answer is just yelling colonialism.

Most of those reasons, that are very real, are explicitly derived of colonialism.

For instance:

  • 2 (resources) is the cause that the US promotes puppet right-wing governments or directly destroys countries to pillage them.
  • 3 (education) is systematically destroyed in many countries because they want to make public education disappear so it's for profit. Again, following the US model and most likely benefiting US companies (for instance "educational" campaigns to teach proprietary products created by US companies, e.g. Microsoft)
  • 4 (stability) is directly threatened by the US foreign policy of destroying every country that is ideologically or economically inconvenient for the unimpeded proliferation of unbridled, savage capitalism.
  • 6: in many developing countries public health has been destroyed to follow for-profit schemes based in the US model, to benefit either US companies or US-backed right-wing politicians.
  • 11: Crime is worst in countries reduces to poverty, in many cases by US-backed lending policies sending countries into misery.

All this, of course, is supported by years of colonial teachings after which the people in the "developing" countries despise themselves and look up to the powerful countries as inherently superior, even morally.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Not just the US. Cambridge Analytica is trying to manipulate our politics through scummy means such as misinformation campaigns. And our country is being fucked by the effects of Climate Change while western countries are celebrating because "it's more sunny and warm now! :D", and "finally more viable real estate!"

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Colonialism has done really bad things in the African and Middle Eastern continent. When they withdrew they irresponsibly drew the borders and now civil wars happen all the fucking time

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[–] [email protected] 54 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (3 children)

In this topic: people who underestimate the importance of infrastructure and low crime and low corruption.

1st answer: developing countries don't have enough infrastructure to benefit from wealth. Not enough trains to move raw goods around, not enough roads or not enough electricity to do anything even if those good arrived.

2nd level: when governments get the money for such projects, they steal it from the people through corruption. See Turkey and all the invested dollars on earthquake-proofing buildings, it was all stolen in ways people didn't understand or realize until the earthquake happened.

3rd level: even if the government didn't steal the money, criminals can. Even in the USA we deal with transformer thieves (transformers are bundles of copper that convert long distance high voltage power into short distance power for houses). These copper bundles can sell for $$$$ in the black market.

So even if #1 and #2 miraculously happen, a criminal will steal the infrastructure and they gotta start all over again.


Everyone knows how to make cities more advanced and better. Build highways, trains, mass transit. Invest into freight (trains or boats). Invest into education so that people can run these machines.

And many 3rd world countries advance forward. But it's harder to do than it looks.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

developing countries don't have enough infrastructure to benefit from wealth

It’s even worse: they only have the infrastructure to allow us to profit from their wealth. Colonial powers made sure the railroad between the mines and the ports are top notch, so their mineral riches can be carted off efficiently to the metropole.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

China and other advanced nations prove that an export based economy can work though.

I will say that export driven economies are very difficult though. See Taiwan and their export of chips. It only works because Taiwan is basically modern Vulkans / Wizards who have chip technology that no one else in the world has.

A system of top level universities to build that kind of knowledge and infrastructure is difficult and outside the reach of most countries.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 9 months ago

Export based <> extraction based

[–] beatle 9 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The machines are Dutch and the designs are made by the customer. The Taiwanese advantage is their government subsidised chip manufacturing. They aren’t wizards.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

Global Foundries up in Buffalo, New York had the same exact Dutch equipment as them and couldn't get past 12nm.

Taiwan / TSMC is hitting 3nm today (a feat that even Intel and Samsung cannot accomplish yet), and is well on its way to 2nm designs.

They're fucking wizards who are 5+ years ahead of USA. Thank god they're allies of us. But they're severely kicking our ass in terms of yields, production, and even technology, using the same machines to ink smaller-and-smaller transistors to a degree impossible to us in the USA today.

The problem is by the time we figure out 3nm, TSMC will be at 2nm or better. They just consistently lead and are superior over us for the last 20 years or so.

[–] beatle 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

nanometer is a marketing term now and doesn’t reflect actual sizes. Samsung were first with “3nm”.

America was doing “3nm” in 2018. You don’t seem to have any understanding of this issue.

From Wikipedia:

The term "3 nanometer" has no direct relation to any actual physical feature (such as gate length, metal pitch or gate pitch) of the transistors. According to the projections contained in the 2021 update of the International Roadmap for Devices and Systems published by IEEE Standards Association Industry Connection, a 3 nm node is expected to have a contacted gate pitch of 48 nanometers and a tightest metal pitch of 24 nanometers.

Also from Wikipedia:

South Korean chipmaker Samsung started shipping its 3 nm gate all around (GAA) process, named 3GAA, in mid-2022. On 29 December 2022, Taiwanese chip manufacturer TSMC announced that volume production using its 3 nm semiconductor node termed N3 is under way with good yields.

In early 2018, IMEC (Interuniversity Microelectronics Centre) and Cadence stated they had taped out 3 nm test chips, using extreme ultraviolet lithography (EUV) and 193 nm immersion lithography.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (8 children)

nanometer is a marketing term now and doesn’t reflect actual sizes. Samsung were first with “3nm”.

And iPhones chose TSMC's 3nm, because TSMC is more than just 3nm, but also at a scale and price-point that Apple desires.

America was doing “3nm” in 2018

I'm talking about industry and manufacturing. Test labs doing one or two wafers back in 2018 doesn't matter compared to the millions-of-chips that roll off of Taiwan's production facilities.

No one in the USA can mass produce designs like this. Korea / Samsung is 2nd best, but still is slower at mass production than Taiwan.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago

The actual research that you’re giving Taiwan credit for is US research. There’s a reason the US was able to tell the Dutch government “You can’t allow this hardware to go to China.”

The basic research for the Extreme Ultraviolet lithography was done at US DOE labs as a hedge against Japan dominating the world semiconductor supply. The US allowed a few companies in as part of the EUV-LLC private-public partnership, and ASML ended up buying out the other players who had the licenses from the US. The EU certainly had a hand in the research after the test bed was built proving it could work. https://www.sandia.gov/media/ultra.htm

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

You can see this in painful clarity watching the Argentinian railroads. Created and operated by the UK originally, it has a clear shape of a funnel from all over the country towards the main port city, Buenos Aires.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

But the USA and western EU countries are rich, but, for example, China, India, Russia, Vietnam, Nigeria, Mexico and others are not very rich, how is this possible?

Even New Zealand is rich, but other island countries are not.

Is it all culture or not?

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[–] [email protected] 50 points 9 months ago (39 children)

Everyone seems to be focusing on colonialism, but that really only brought Europe to a standard of living near India and China.

The real major thing that happened was that "the West" started industrializing before the rest of the world did. Some of the wealth came from colonial holdings that industrial countries had, but a lot of it came from having citizens who were more than a order of magnitude more economically productive than citizens of other countries for over a century.

Why the Indian subcontinent and China didn't industrialize at the time is up to debate, but some theories are related to lower labor costs not sparking the positive feedback engine of industrialization until it was too late to compete against the West and going into periods of relative decline that Western countries could take advantage of.

The West was able to make itself the factory of the world, pushing the rest of the world into resource extraction.

It wasn't until after World War II that other parts of the world were able to industrialize.

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[–] [email protected] 31 points 9 months ago

1 The middle income trap. Many countries used their cheap uneducated population as an opportunity for cheap labour, for large companies. This brings lots of capital to the country and people, and the country develops. Building more schools, infrastructure etc. but as a country develops, pay increases for workers, and suddenly their labour is no longer cheap. Their country's economy is now effectively stuck.

2 Conflict and instability. Investors don't want to pour money into a country where it might have a coup, leadership change, etc. They don't want to lose what they invest, since these events usually result in lots of private property being taken or destroyed. This fact leaves a lot of countries in a catch 22. They need investment to stabilize, but need to stabilize to gain investment.

A lot of countries are also unstable because of badly drawn borders. This often leaves a lot of ethnic tensions that continue to boil away indefinitely. Sometimes the borders give a country horrible geography and incentivise them to invade their neighbors.

One example would be that country #1 is downstream of a major river, behind country #2 and #3. Country #2 and 3 use a lot of the water and there is none left for country #1 and their only option is to invade.

The final and probably most common reason is that dictators don't care about prosperity, and that dictators lead to more dictators. Far more often than not, coups lead to another, worse dictator, focused on holding power than their country's success.

The reason that south Korea and Taiwan are successful and democratic today are because they rolled the 1/1000 chance on a benevolent dictator that WILLINGLY steered the country into democracy and genuinely improved the economy.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 9 months ago

The "Western" countries pillaged the rest of the world for centuries.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 9 months ago

Guess who colonized whom...

[–] [email protected] 23 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

There's a lot but it mainly comes down to how Europeans were more developed than the rest of the world due to their frequent wars, so when they went to colonize the world nobody stood a chance. And since colonialism and the subsequent horrible decolonization messed up those countries, we get the state of the world today.

To be more specific, colonialism basically turned affected countries into oversized plantations run by foreigners. Any political development that was already there went out the window, and of course no more could be made. Then you got decolonization, where you had countries either being fought off (like France) or packing their bags and leaving (like the British). This created massive power vacuums, and when you have power vacuums you get power struggles and dictatorships and from there we see the world's current state. On the other hand you have Botswana, where they actually had a native ruler class who could rule when the British left. They were an occupied country, not an oversized plantation, so they're virtually one of the best places to be in Africa. Also specifically in Africa colonies would have their borders drawn with no care for the relationship between the people living there, and occasionally they'd actively set them up for failure by putting rival ethnic groups together.

And of course you have neo-colonialism and shit that even now continue to hold back African development.

TL;DR: Europeans came, turned everything into a plantation, then when they left the plantation collapsed and either a dictator came or things returned to survival for the fittest which then produced war-torn dictatorships. These countries should be able to become decent countries with time, and there are many examples of that happening, but the West is still preventing it in many places. See: France in Africa, cold war-era US in Latin America.

Of course we can get into infrastructure and education and all that, but all these things have their roots in the simple fact that these countries had a horrible start (whether a civil war or a dictatorship) and in many cases had to build states from scratch, and in politics a bad start can cost you decades.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 9 months ago (8 children)

It's true, former British colony The United States is still a developing country for this very reason.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Due to the lack of functioning government, the mafia/corporations took over and nowadays the government is but a puppet. I send my thoughts and prayers to the Americans.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (3 children)

Uhhhhh.

Anyone who has been to a developing country (in my case: the Philippines) vs USA will laugh at what USA citizens think of corruption.

You got Fucking assassinations paid for by Filipino government likely to cover up political rivals. Open corruption in the Police where you can just pay them to get out of parking tickets or even criminal acts. Etc etc.

Don't be so much of a drama queen. USA is fine. There are entire countries of people trying to leave their country to enter USA to escape truly awful corruption issues. Phillipines is one corrupt example (especially if your family was politically on the wrong side of the Marcos family or whatever)

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago

Don’t be so much of a drama queen. USA is fine.

Better than some places? Sure I'll grant you that.

Fine? Absolutely not.

Horrific levels of violence, 22% of the worlds prison population, massive drug abuse issues and a failing health care system.

I don't know a single person from Australia who is remotely interested in immigrating to the US, while I know plenty of Americans keen to live here.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The thing is, in the US everything is 10x bigger. There's no corrupt single cops. The whole police establishment is a huge massive overpaid problem that kills people and go one unpunished. There's no political bickering and assassinations in the country, they do it everywhere else in the world, and still receive global forgiveness because you just can't sanction the US. Richest country in the world and yet has the biggest share of prisoners, homeless, personal debt. Highly educated, but by far the most school shootings.

The US isn't "fine". You can't see past the superficial bling because it's a rich country. It's a really twisted country.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

The US isn’t “fine”. You can’t see past the superficial bling because it’s a rich country. It’s a really twisted country.

And that shit exists in the Philippines but is at least 100x worse. You likely don't understand because you've never been to a place like that.

And note: Philippines is actually a lot better than other countries as well. Truly 3rd world countries like Congo care even less about their citizens. Such states are closer to something like a Civil War or maybe even Crime-lord / Mafia ring, where militia get military weapons from Russia or something and no one cares to listen to the official government anymore because the literal crime lords have more physical power.

Richest country in the world and yet has the biggest share of prisoners, homeless, personal debt. Highly educated, but by far the most school shootings.

USA has one of the best bankruptcy laws meaning debt isn't actually punishing here. There's at least schools in existence here... free schools mind you... and everyone's allowed. There's no segregation system or class system anymore so everyone (including women) are allowed to go through the public school system. Etc. etc. etc.

If you ever get into significant debt that you can't pay it off? File for bankruptcy protection. That's why the law exists, to prevent debts from becoming overly burdensome. That's why so many citizens can enter deep debts, because we have a forgiveness system that few other countries even have.

The reason why student-loan debt gets so much attention btw, is because student loan debt is the one and only debt that cannot be protected during bankruptcy-protection.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Also its created a cyclical problem. (And Im going to do a terrible job of explaining this but I hope people can grasp what I'm on about.)

Getting any kind of significant change going in a "developing" nation requires MASSIVE investment that they cant afford, which requires investment from mega-multinationals or foreign nations, who then (either rightly or not) have to tread super carefully because it looks like they are trying to buy the country by proxy, which means they dont want to make the super-mega investments because one little leadership change and a little nationalisation makes their investment worthless.

Basically you need either a super benevolent form of colonialism or super ethical capitalism to get the ball rolling without just repeating the mistakes of the past.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)
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[–] [email protected] 15 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

Extractive capitalism pulls resources and wealth out of "developing" nations, leaving them poor. Power and money maintain power and money through a boot on the throat militarily and economically and by fomenting internal conflict within the "developing" nations.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago

Mostly corruption and stability doesn't allow for business to develop along with the wealth that brings.

There are other factors but mainly you need good governance and free markets to allow for wealth creation. It at least that is the only model that has worked so far.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago

Look up 'Elite Capture'. It's really hard to build good institutions and keep them strong and free from corruption, and they will be under siege by special interests from day one.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago

Because you need a middle class to have a high standard of living.

And you can't have a middle class when your culture has internalized class oppression that tells you to never question your superiors.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago

Riches have high standarts of living. Poors have no life, they survive. "Developed" countries has more middle class than others, which are promised to be rich by rich if they help rich to get richer by stealing from poor by capitalism.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)
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[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

There will always be 50% of countries poorer than the 50% richest countries

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago

Imagine 3 people, with different amounts of wealth. 1 of them will always be richer than the other 2 by definition. There’s nothing wrong with this.

The problem comes when richest has much much more than the poorest. There’s little problem if poorest has 1 and richest has 3. There’s a huge problem if poorest has 1 and richest has 1 billion.

It’s not about how we sort countries, it’s about how wealth is distributed.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I think it is because of population vs resources allocated per person. When a nation is developing it is still trying to catch up with the high number of population it can service, but with little resource it can utilize or there is but not yet utilize. It has no choice but to cut corners in turn lower standard of education, health, social services, housing and unutilize laws. This in turn having some or majority of the people receiving less and some none at all. This makes them vulnerable to bad influence and bad decision e.g. vote buying, rebellion. They cannot participate in the nation building process in a right mind since they are trying to survive. Anyways, I'm probably just talking bullshit. To be fair not all Western nations have high standard of living e.g. some nations in eastern Europe.

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