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It's no mental stretch to believe idf would kill their own to further the genocide agenda.
After all, if the hostages are already dead no need for a ceasefire.
Considering they already have, multiple times, I guess I could agree with you
Yeah, it seems more the IDF is just shooting literally anything human-shaped. Aid workers, friendlies, journalists, civilians, in addition to the odd actual "guy actually shooting at us".
I did read an article though that the most current attack on aid had been taken over or ambushed by people with weapons. Not defending IDF for their genocide and terrorism, but the aid group said so apparently for this most recent attack on aid conveys, although there have been dozens.
Also, condemning genocide and apartheid occupation does not mean support for a terrorist organization like Hamas, but it can be argued they treat their prisoners and hostages better than Israel.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive#2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
I don't think they intentionally would, but indiscriminate bombing has the tendency to create unintentional deaths for everyone involved.
What the actual fuck are you talking about. Hamas murders people all the fucking time, posting videos of their brutal murders etc. proudly online. IDF has no interest in killing hostages, it does not help them, it can only backfire.
I mean I also don't think they're killing hostages (intentionally, anyway), but to say it's not in their interest is wrong.
They have already killed 3 hostages waving white flags.
"They" being the IDF, to be clear.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-hostages-killed-mistakenly-gaza-were-holding-white-flag-official-says-2023-12-16/
Yes, sorry I should have been less ambiguous. Thanks for posting a link.
I know but that was more of a fucking mess than anything resembling a policy to my knowledge.
Netanyahu and the Likud? Right-wing party of Israel weren't they found to have funneled money and funds and weapons and all kinds of shit to support Hamas activities just to maintain their control over the state of Israel?
Either way, the Region is FSCKed beyond belief. And the CCPPCC and Russia have more fingers in more of the Mid-East Asia pie just as much as Europe/America.
No foreseeable workable solution for next 10 years.
Or 20 tbh.
It's baffling that you're being downvoted for this. L
Lemmy in a nutshell. Mostly a very specific group of people.
Hasbara
These people are all kinds of dumb fucking idiots living in a fairy tale where Hamas are the poor oppressed good guys
I'm telling you that if, say, Canada came and occupied my home town, forced everyone out, and killed my family, that I'd definitely be an anti Canadian terrorist.
Addition: How is this being downvoted. Violence begets terrorists. Have we learned nothing from historical US intervention in the middle east? This is Israel's "War on Terror" and its going to end the same way. Tons of dead brown people and many many more terrorists.
Hey Buddy, there'd no need to go there, pal. We're not going to do that unless there's a Tim's in your town friend.
PS, please don't read up about our history in WWI, we're just the funny folks with goofy red uniforms and horses...
PPS, please don't read up about the actual RCMP.
You'll be disappointed. Tim's is no good any more.
Oh yeah, the coffee and donuts are absolute shit - the scones are kinda alright though.
That isn't Hamas though. Their leadership lives it up in Bahrain I think and has a dictatorship over Gaza. Before the pandemic there was a protest by the Palestinians and it was brutally oppressed. Hamas hasn't held elections in a long time.
Don't confuse Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians seeking revenge with Hamas.
I'm saying when you have no outlet for justice, you will side with whatever is the next best option. It's what all these harm reductionists say here in the states about voting.
You side with the best of two options, and hamas, even if just slightly, is better for Palestinians than Israel.
I'd be a lot easier to just objectively say "fuck Hamas", if Israel wasn't being their #1 recruitment officer by making life in Palestine and the West Bank hell.
Oh I don't disagree there. I agree with pretty much everything you've said here actually. I was just saying that Hamas isn't some pure hearted rebellion group. But I do think they are the lesser evil.
Yeah I wish more people could have that level of nuance. Hamas suck, agreed, Israel really is fueling them. Imagine how different this would look of Israel stood with the world after October 7th and were peaceful. Suddenly Hamas would have been public enemy #1.
But Israel jumped the shark and used it instead as a pretext for ethnic cleansing.
They have leadership in and out of Gaza. Which is so obvious I don't understand why Westerners like to use it as a point against Hamas. The political leadership of Hamas needs to be able to negotiate with Israel and third parties, and when was the last time Netanyahu went to Gaza to negotiate?
Exactly.
Also Hamas is both a dictatorship and a group of freedom fighters. Fighting oppression is a good act on its own, but it doesn't need to be done by good people.
Well said. I just like to differentiate between Hamas itself and the Palestinians freedom fighters, because there is a difference. At the end of the day though, maybe it isn't a distinction that matters a whole lot right now.
You would be a freedom fighter going for liberation though.
Hampshire is not attempting to liberate the Palestinian people.
That's what you are failing to realize.
A person with no options is going to choose the better of two evils. Hamas wants to rule over them. Israel wants to wipe them off the map.
Its always the same people that advocate for harm reduction with our votes that say stuff like this.
The only option here is for one of the two side to be better, and I feel it's incumbent on Israel as long as they are recieving our weapons.
That's the only reason any of us care over here in the US, frankly, is that we are suddenly all morally culpable. In the hypothetical Candian invasion circumstance, I would absolutely side with "Not Canada" if given an option.
Can you name a single policy or decision over the last 20 years that Hamas has had that makes you believe they aren't themselves attempting to get Palestine wiped off the map?
In my mind, if Hamas were themselves trying to rule, they would be making decisions for themselves and not doing what Iran tells them to.
Surely you have put two and two together already.
You want me to prove a negative?
"Prove that they don't want to kill themselves"
Hardly a cogent argument you are making. Absolute insanity. Let's assume for a moment that their intention is to get themselves all killed, which again is ludicrous. How does that excuse Israel's actions?
How does Israel actions, to my point, not strengthen Hamas recruitment and power?
So you can't name a single decision made by the Palestinian government that has improved their life over the last 20 years rather making things worse for them?
That's irrelevant. Because, as I said, the choices are absolute shit rulers or complete destruction. You are seeming to think I'm arguing Hamas are the good guys here.
When presented with the choice of destruction by Israel or a horrific theocratic regime, they are making the only choice available.
Harm Reduction.
Except complete destruction wasn't a card on the table before Hamas.
Israel is also not the ones who suspended all future Palestinian elections.
Israel isn't grooming Palestinian children i to working as Hamas terrorists by producing children's cartoons blaming Jews for homosexuality, etc.
Israel can be wrong in their response, 100%. But we need to be clear: Hamas is only capable of getting Palestinians murdered. They serve no other purpose.
Israel, as a currently established state is literally a product of displacing Palestinians dictated by English Colonial Mandate.
The dissolution of Palestine was always on the table from the outset.
And let's for a moment entertain the notion that Hamas is responsible for their ethnic cleansing in its entirety. How do you explain what's happening right now in the West Bank?
The horrors of October 7th are being used a a pretext.
Hamas sucks in totality, but they only have any ounce of power because they are filling the vaccum created by Israel's oppression. Weve already sonw this (the US), in our war on terror. I'll put it this way, If Israel was peaceful, they'd have the entire worlds support right now instead of practically nobody except the US. Hamas would be public enemy #1 if Israel didn't use that event as an excuse for genocide.
The mandate was referred to as the Palestinian mandate, not the Israeli mandate.
That's a pretty big thing to be factually wrong about here when claiming the British plotted a genocide from the very beginning.
My brother, I'm saying that the British had colonial ownership of that land and carved out the area, displacing people in the process for Ashkenazi Jews that did not live there before WW2.
You are clearly a bad faith actor that doesn't follow up on any of my inquires, and after having given you the benefit of the doubt in assuming your good faith, I'm blocking you.
The term Palestinian mandate is in reference to carving out the region, not carving the people out of existence. The British also sent Christian zionists before they sent Jews. The Palestinian civil war which led to Israeli expansion also was after the British ceded the territory.
If you want to accuse others of acting in bad faith because they know the historical context better than you, that's fine, but if you want to open the door to making this a discussion about bad faith, let's go for it.
Let's start with people like you on here, loudly proclaiming to be American leftists, who claim to support the land back movement in support of our indigenous people, while at the same time claiming that the one historical act of "landbacking" that happened is by its nature an act of genocide.
If the land back movement was to gain any ground, to be ideologically consistent, you would have to claim that native Americans were genociding white Americans and that they weren't even located in the region before white Americans, which is what you just claimed about Jews.
So yes, if you are unable to confront this, please block.
They got Israel to leave Gaza so there we go. That's one. They help Palestinians who have lost everything to get revenge on their oppressors. There's another one. And they're helping push a two-state solution and elevated this issue of the Palestinian plight more than it's ever been raised before.
What if you did it first for like a thousand years and wanted to do it again?
Walking around in your home town on top of artifacts, the earliest recorded human history of the region, written in the language of the people you're saying pushed you out. Sounds delusional to say the land was yours first. Just dig a hole and look for yourself. Hamas knows this, with all their digging.
Land provenance isn't a good argument for Gaza. The historical record of who was there first is irrefutable
Modern Ashkenazi Jews are not ancient Israelis.
They looked a lot more like the Palestinians. IMO religion as a race is stupid anyways
Maybe not the right call but it was the call and now that's what we've got. Saying it's not the right call is a useless platitude, same as saying Palestinians were there first. Israel is there. Israel a flawed democracy, which is infinitely better than the far right, theocratic dictatorships, including Gaza, which surround it, and for that reason alone is worth the western defense.
We aren't talking about 1000s of years ago, or even weeks ago. They are still creating illegal settlements and displacing everyone else. They haven't even kept to their own stolen borders.
Israel is literally an apartheid state committing genocide. Their democracy isn't worth shit.
Not really but okay.
Uh... The Israelites who were there first are, for the most part, the ancestors of modern Palestinians. Your point simply doesn't stand when you look at history.