this post was submitted on 27 Jul 2024

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293

TIL kobolds in Japan are dog-people because of a mistranslation in a copy of AD&D in the 80s (slrpnk.net)

submitted 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

55 comments fedilink hide all child comments

I was reading about Dungeon Meshi and Kuro, the "kobold".

Kobolds are usually depicted as canine humanoids in Japanese media compared to the more reptilian humanoids that kobolds are depicted as in western media[4] such as Dungeons and Dragons. The reason for this is credited as either a mistranslation of the first Dungeons and Dragons Monster Manual[5] or because of the lack of reference art in said Monster Manual, but a picture of a jackalwere being present on the opposite page[6], which was then used as reference art for the anime, The Record of the Lodoss War. That anime is credited for solidifying the trope of canine kobolds in Japanese media.

From https://delicious-in-dungeon.fandom.com/wiki/Kobolds#cite_note-5

And the supporting youtube video https://m.youtube.com/shorts/rUntTZ6spOc

Bonus fact: piglike orcs.

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[–] [email protected] 56 points 3 months ago (5 children)

It's not a mistranslation that caused it, kobolds were both described and illustrated as doglike until 3rd Edition where with no explanation they simply changed it and decided they were lizard like/draconic.

I do think the new version of kobolds is an interesting creature, but truthfully they should've just come up with a new name for this new creature instead of just completely changing the kobold.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago

Yeah. I've never really been sure what a Kobold was. My friend had an older monster manual that showed it as a chubby beady eyed goblin, while mine had a little rat man, and then I get back into the game a few decades later, and kobolds are now little dragons.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago

Should've just named the new ones drakobolds

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Found a really good source including a picture of the first edition. It looks like that they were mentioned indeed in the 2nd edition to be more dog like in a sense of voice "yappin like a dog" and smelling like damp dog. Their visuals however were not really dog like. So I assume it was maybe both a mistranlation and an over interpretation of some texts from 2nd edition or just pure free choice from the author of this anime. https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2022/01/dd-monster-spotlight-kobolds.html

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Their visuals however were not really dog like.

The kobold in the 1st edition illustration in the article you linked has a distinctly dog-like muzzle. Other related media, such as Stone Soup, also depict or describe them as "dog-like".

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I guess with some imagination you could say the muzzle does indeed look dog like but the rest? I mean even if you morph some reptiles into humans you'd get such kind of muzzle. It's not really that "distict" imo, but I get why some would say otherwise.

"Kobolds were first described as hairless humanoids with small horns by Gygax in the Monster Manual (1977)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobold_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29?wprov=sfla1

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

That first edition version looks like a dog's head with horns and pointy ears to me at least, and that's kinda what I was referring to.

Admittedly the 2nd edition version looks a bit less doglike, but I still see similarities with some breeds.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

Fahhhhk, thank you.

I swear I remembered dog people from 2nd edition and was super confused when I started playing DDO and they were some kind of dragonkin. Then people who started with 3rd were telling me kobolds had always been lizards.

Somewhere my old 2nd edition books are still around in a box, but damned if I know where.

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[–] [email protected] 53 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (3 children)

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B3%E3%83%9C%E3%83%AB%E3%83%88 seems to have a bit of a different approach stating that D&D 3rd ed. changed them to be more reptilian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobold actually seems to corroborate this. I played D&D since the end of the 1st ed. days and I think of them as kinda dog-like heads that were also scaly. I have a 2nd ed. Monstrous Manual, but it's on the other side of the world at the moment so I can't check.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kobold

https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Kobold_(Creature)

I'm not buying the OP here.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

My only real experience with them is from Pool of Radiance, the first “gold box” CRPG. They were pretty dog-like in that.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago

I had so many of the SSI gold)silver box titles. Death Knights of Krynn was my first IIRC

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Anyone with an original copy of the western version should be able to easily confirm this, no?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago

Don't have it with me but I distinctly the third link as the depiction in the AD&D 2E Monstrous Manual.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago

I hate to ask: can you update the fandom with your research?

https://delicious-in-dungeon.fandom.com/wiki/Kobolds

I don't know enough about this topic and Im really enjoying learning all of this!

[–] [email protected] 43 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Hm. The source for this is a vtubers YouTube short?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 months ago

The most reliable source there is

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

It smelled fishy when I posted it but honestly, I'm dumb as a doorknob to dig deeper and didn't know how to start this convo on fantasy races.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 3 months ago

They were more doglike in 1e and 2e of D&D, so I don't think it's a mistranslation

[–] [email protected] 25 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Where I live (a German speaking country) a kobold is more like a small humanoid being, more like a gnome

[–] [email protected] 26 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Pretty sure they are germanic in origin, but I would have to double check.

Originally, in the middle ages miners experienced toxic gasses and other weird effects while mining iron, such as ore exploding when smelting. They attributed some of the problems to mischievous creatures they would call Kobolds hiding in the mines.

It was eventually discovered that these problems were caused by another whole element creating impurities in the ore, when separated and identified, it came to be known as Cobalt.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 months ago

Isn't Kobold basically just German for goblins and gremlins and the like?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

American, but I also think of them as like blue, spiky icy imps. I'm not sure where I got it, but seems like a Nintendo era RPG, maybe Final Fantasy

[–] [email protected] 16 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Kobolds are originally just the "small folk" of German mythology with all of them being gnome-like but with varying degrees of hospitality. That's why you get your mine Kobolds, your Heinzelmännchen and your Klabautermann.

Bonus fact: Dog like Kobolds in DnD derived media are not exclusive to Japan, in the Everquest lore they are also dog like (and a bit hyena like, whereas gnolls here are fully canine)

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I don't know if the "reptilian" description applies to all Western media. I think it might just be D&D, as I was always used to seeing dog-like Kobolds in EverQuest and rat-like Kobolds in World of Warcraft.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 3 months ago (1 children)

In Germanic folklore, kobolds just look like small people that are often also depicted as being green and having large ears. They are spirits of the home and sometimes benevolent and sometimes mischievous.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 months ago

also the spirits of mines that are sometimes benevolent and sometimes malevolent
cobalt is named after them because it was a toxic ore seen as a contaminant that caused injury and death to miners

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Huh, TIL Kobold is lizard people in D&D. My knowledge of kobold is first via Ragnarok Online, it's a game by South Korean company and it's depict it as dog-people. Since then i didn't see it depict as anything else.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I'm still not sure what the fuck they were supposed to be in WoW, I just know you no take candle.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago

Ohh, totally forgot about Blizzard's kobold, i always assume they're also dog-people but then i got confused with Gnoll. Apparently Kobold in Warcraft is rat-people lol.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

I am a mixed goober, and always figured they were dogs. But also have only played D&D collectively twice in my life (and then the pandemic happened). So I only know them from fantasy stuff. One of which being Age of Wonders, which I played with a friend at one point in my life. And was confused as to why the dog guys were little gremlins. Also watched Lodoss Wars as a kid, but don't really remember it. I'm not sure how a->b but I always assumed they were dog folk.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago

Ragnarok Online 🤩

I met my now wife in that game.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 months ago

I was exposed to them as dog like humanoids in EverQuest before I had ever known about them in D&D even though I had played D&D prior, so when I learned they are actually lizard/dragon like I was confused.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I first heard of Kobolds in the PC game Age of Wonders. They were depicted as scrawny little goblin like creatures who lived in Orcish garbage piles. They had glowing green eyes. Certainly not doglike.

Plus they had a poison melee attack. Respect for those little resource reclamation engineer dudes

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

That's where my mind goes when I think of kobold.

Like, the halfling of Orcs. And yes to poison attacks for some reason!

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago

the halfling of Orcs

Damn.. that’s so true

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Bottom right, isn't that the wolf that ate grandma?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 months ago

I don’t know your grandma’s boyfriends but she sounds pretty wild

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Accidental Death & Dismemberment?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Advanced Dungeons and Dragons - one of the early editions of the book
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons#Advanced_Dungeons_%26_Dragons

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

Thanks! I didn’t get into D&D until 5e so I’m light on some of the lore :)

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

that explains the kobold enemy from quest64. that one confused me for ages

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Quest For Glory(not really D&D, but old) had them as a Grey, Pot-bellied, lanky, human-heightish, short-eared magical Goblinoid(holy shit: Endermen?). I never encountered any refference to them in western literature with either dog features or lizard tails or scales until some of the more recent Forgotten Realms books; Their presence always seemed like an after-thought. I mostly read the D&D novels though.

Never occoured to me that any dog-people I saw in anime or manga were kobolds, nor that those came into Japanese media through D&D, but un-like D&D, a lot of them were named characters that did stuff.

Still haven't seen a depiction of a lizard-Kobold. Sounds more like a Dragon-born's pet.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Huh, I forgot they called that little guy a kobold in Quest for Glory. I always went in there to steal his shrooms, but only discovered decades later he had an invisible chest in there too that can be revealed with detect magic.

Fun to see someone mention the game out in the wild.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

I'm still fighting the good fight of keeping Kobolds as they originally were in Germanic fairy tales: weird little guys spiritually bound to a house or ship.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

Til I'm a kobold

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Weird little fish guys? Are the ones bound to houses different looking?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

If you expect a consistent appearance from fairy tale creatures I am sorry to disappoint you. They're just weird, little, solitary creatures.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

In the old D&D fluff, kobolds are described as having "dog like faces". They became lizard and then dragon people later, so I guess you could say that both versions of kobold are equally divergent from the original concept.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

I always saw kobolds as 'slightly redder than normal goblins' in old grindy korean MMOs

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago

Vindictus?

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