this post was submitted on 10 Oct 2024
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TLDR:
Windows 11 v24H2 and beyond will have Recall installed on every system. Attempting to remove Recall will now break some file explorer features such as tabs.

YT Video (5min)

Invidious Link

Original Github Issue

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[–] [email protected] 290 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

This is absolutely insane
My condolences to all Windows 11 users.

It's becoming common knowledge that:

  • It's not a matter of if but when will xyz service/application be breached and what are the potential damages it could do to me and others?

"I assume every online service is not if; it's when is it going to be breached? Right? So I operate under that assumption, that everything is going to be breached at some point. And so that's why Recall was so scary to me where it's like, I don't care how secure they say it is, like you look at Spectre and Meltdown no one thought these things were going to affect millions of CPUs and here we are, right?

  • Steve from Gamers Nexus

[Level1Techs] Microsoft Is KILLING Windows | ft. Steve @GamersNexus

[–] [email protected] 72 points 3 weeks ago (21 children)

I guess I just have to keep Windows 10 with a custom group policy that disables all updates either forever or until I learn Linux.

Linux gaming is getting to the point that I could consider the switch, but I hear scary stories about Nvidia drivers.

[–] [email protected] 57 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I had no issues with Nvidia. PopOs has support for Nvidia on install....I used it and it worked

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

I have a GTX 1080 and I've been gaming on Linux for over a year now. No issues. Only thing that you cant do is some of the new generation window managers (wayland) but even that is working well in the nvidia drivers that arent on stable yet. In any case, the previous generations window managers work great and if wayland doesnt work properly for you, you can just as easily do without it.

Point is, its worth it to make the switch. I set my partner up with Linux Mint when their machine didnt qualify for windows updates anymore and they've had no problems, games and all. And they would never touch the command line.

Would recommend

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[–] [email protected] 269 points 3 weeks ago (11 children)

Microsoft has been the single most effective marketing asset for GNU/Linux distributions in recent years.

[–] [email protected] 70 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Well Valve was doing too well with the steam deck in that area so they had to trump them, second place is just the first loser.

[–] [email protected] 70 points 3 weeks ago

Valve is holding the carrot, Microsoft the stick.

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[–] [email protected] 194 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 68 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (11 children)

After all the fud and opposition they've pushed against it over the years. It's nice to see them finally do things to help it.

Quick edit to add that it couldn't come at a better time now that there are companies like system 76 out there. Making Linux compatible systems that ship with Linux that you can actually recommend to someone who is a novice to pick up. They may be on a more expensive side. But what's your privacy worth?

[–] [email protected] 40 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

But what's your privacy worth?

I think society has shown us time and time again over several decades that the answer to that question is "not a God damned thing".

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[–] [email protected] 193 points 3 weeks ago (8 children)

Okay, this might be a non-issue: https://github.com/ChrisTitusTech/winutil/issues/2697#issuecomment-2403792309

To those that arrive here from any Youtube or Twitter posts, please know that disabling Recall via DISM works fine, and preserves the modern File Explorer (though some might consider this an anti-feature). CBS correctly disables it, and the disablement is preserved through reboots, just like with any other feature.

Edit: of course, the big problem here is that it's still present (even disabled) and hence malware could turn it back on without you realising. Ugh.

[–] [email protected] 87 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

A lot of unpopular "features" and behaviors used to have DISM, policy, or registry workarounds. And MS seems to love to kill those workarounds during later updates.

If MS isn't letting people uninstall it, there's a reason for it, and I'd be willing to bet that users will one day find that it has been magically re-enabled by an update.

[–] [email protected] 39 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

There will 100% be a policy to disable it. Microsoft may shit on their retail users, but there's no way they'd force it on their enterprise clients. It's a security and compliance nightmare and they know it.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Problem is disabling it will likely be locked behind the Enterprise edition.

Kind of like the "Recommended" section in the Start menu. There is actually a way to disable that entirely...if you have an Enterprise license. There is no way to do it on any other version.

I said it was back when they took Group Policy out of the Home edition: the long term goal is to make truly controlling Windows a premium feature that only corporations can afford, and you see that with the slow elimination of many of those settings.

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[–] [email protected] 51 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Malware could also reinstall it to be fair, or just create screenshots on its own.

Still smells fishy that Explorer has it as a dependency, "disabled" or not.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 3 weeks ago

Recall is malware, at least according to Malwarebytes!

Malware, or “malicious software,” is an umbrella term that refers to any malicious program or code that is harmful to systems.

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[–] [email protected] 176 points 3 weeks ago (24 children)

Linux is here to welcome you

[–] [email protected] 73 points 3 weeks ago (17 children)

Man, I cling to Windows like nobody else, as I didn't have any advertising issues and such, but this will be the final straw.

It's already enough of a spying system but I refuse to have it as a spy on crack.

Time to read into distros.

[–] [email protected] 50 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (21 children)

As far as Linux distros are concerned, really, any distro is just a package manager with repos and a set of default utilities. Essentially, a distro is an opinion on how you should use your system, not a law. Now prepare for my ADHD-fuelled stream of consciousness (which I wrote instead of getting any work done, yay):

Stay away from Arch and Gentoo for your first distro. These are basically meme distros, especially Gentoo. They allow for a lot of flexibility and building a really minimal install, but come with install-time complexity you really don't need. Try them later on if you're interested. Stay away from nixOS for now too, although it's also awesome.

Package managers

Essentially, you have two main packaging types: RPM (used by Fedora/RedHat's dnf, previously yum and (Open)SuSE's zypper) and deb (used by apt mostly, dunno if others).

Either one is fine, but I think you'll probably find more software available as debs. But the difference barely exists and with GUI apps you can usually install a flatpak anyway (more on this later).

Deb

Everything deb/apt comes from the Debian lineage.

You have Debian, the granddaddy of stability, releases come every few years and are tested thoroughly. After package freeze, only bugfixes and security updates usually get added. Then you have Ubuntu, a fork of Debian with more frequent releases as well as Long-Term Support releases every 2 years. Ubuntu used to be the most recommended beginner distro, but it's no longer the case - not just because it has ads in it, but also because it pushes Snaps over Flatpaks AND occasionally tries to force Snaps over regular packages (again, more on this later).

Then, much like Ubuntu has forked Debian, others have forked Ubuntu. There's Linux Mint - used to have the same release cadence as Ubuntu, but now they only base their releases off Ubuntu LTS versions. Really, it's Ubuntu without all the commercial stuff Ubuntu's been pushing. And they maintain their own desktop environment(s), but you can get those elsewhere too. There's also Pop!_OS which is developed by System76, a laptop manufacturer. It used to come with its' own customizations on top of Gnome, but now they're creating their own desktop environment altogether, which is currently in Alpha 2. And then there's KDE Neon, which is also based on Ubuntu LTS, but it ships the latest version of KDE Plasma desktop environment, rather than whatever version is in the latest Ubuntu LTS.

Rpm

On the rpm side, you mostly have two families for non-enterprise users: Fedora, which has a similar release cadence to Ubuntu, but apparently keeps packages more up to date between releases and OpenSuSE, which has Leap (new versions every year, with critical bugfixes and security updates in the meantime) and Tumbleweed, which is rolling release, so you just get the latest version of every package that has been tested, rather than having to wait for a new release. Tumbleweed gets updated just about every day. There's also Slowroll, which gets big updates monthly, but can still get bugfixes between those.

Desktop Environments

For just about any distro, you can get just about any desktop environment. Ubuntu and Fedora default to Gnome. KDE Neon is pretty much just meant to be used with KDE Plasma. Pop!_OS defaults to customized Gnome unless you get the alpha version of the new COSMIC desktop. OpenSUSE defaults to KDE Plasma.

For Ubuntu you get variants like Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, etc, for whatever desktop you want, or you can switch alter (apt install kubuntu-desktop for an example). For Fedora, you can get a Fedora Spin, like Fedora KDE Spin for an example. Or you can similarly switch: dnf install @kde-desktop-environment. Same goes for all of them, really.

Desktop environments: The two big ones are KDE Plasma (close to Windows in default appearance, but a lot more customizable, and more functional straight out of the box) and Gnome, which as of Gnome 3 is just... unique, I guess. It's different. Then on the "Help I'm running this on a computer from 2004" side you have things like XFCE and LXQT. (Xubuntu, Lubuntu get their names from these). Those work just fine too, just a bit less eye candy. There are a lot more of less mainstream ones like Budgie or Enlightenment, but you can worry about those later.

Sandboxed applications - Flatpak, Snap

Now, why did I mention Flatpaks and Snaps earlier? Those are sandboxed package managers. A package comes with a sandbox of its' own, and Flatpak or Snap keeps a copy of all the libraries it depends on, instead of using system libraries. This means that 1) There's never a version conflict between what's installed on your system and what the application uses and 2) You have multiple copies of some libraries (Flatpak and Snap both I think do try to deduplicate though so if two applications use the same version of a dependency, it keeps one copy stored). 3) You can install applications your distro doesn't even have a package for.

Both also keep system resources out of reach of the applications, so they're more secure to some degree if you don't trust an application. This comes with limitations, too - sometimes you NEED your application to have access to something that's limited in Flatpak or Snap. You can sorta fix this with flatseal for Flatpak, but it's not perfect.

The real problem with Snap, besides having a proprietary backend vs Flatpak where you can use either Flathub or another application store with it, is that Ubuntu is starting to force it upon you - including for applications you may not want to run in a sandbox at all. You'll run apt install firefox and it'll play a trick on you and install the Snap instead of the deb. You lose some control over your system and how you use it. You can override this, but it's possibly more work than you'd want to take on as a brand new Linux user.

At the end of the day, I recommend using either OpenSuSE Tumbleweed (if you want latest and greatest always), Fedora, Linux Mint, or Pop!_OS. If you really want the latest and greatest KDE Plasma and don't want Tumbleweed, then KDE Neon might make sense for you.

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[–] [email protected] 168 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

how the fuck could they have possibly done things in a way that makes explorer tabs depend on recall?

if they can’t even separate out recall from the rest of the operating system then i have absolutely no faith it will be secure.

[–] [email protected] 94 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

It's so you can't rip Recall out without ruining Explorer, and possibly other things

[–] [email protected] 61 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

Internet explorer did similar things, try to remove it and the OS would just crash.

Edit: just remembered it also had direct memory access to make it faster (well, less slow) which was so insanely unsecure on so many levels.

[–] [email protected] 39 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

A browser, which is like the prime attack vector for malware and other nasty stuff, having direct memory access is so hilarious in hindsight

These days you try to sandbox everything as much as possible in the browser since the internet is like the least trusted environment there is

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[–] [email protected] 163 points 3 weeks ago (17 children)

it was vastly easier to install linux mint than it is to figure out registry editing or whatever the fuck i'd need to avoid this

[–] [email protected] 92 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Nah, mate, Linux is hard, you need to know what a Wayland is. In comparison, Windows is very simple and lightweight, you only have to run a dozen Powershell scripts and edit the registry weekly to get rid of ads.

[–] [email protected] 56 points 3 weeks ago

"Do I look like I know what a Wayland is?"

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[–] [email protected] 44 points 3 weeks ago

And some Windows update would "accidentally" undo that anyways.

[–] [email protected] 37 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

This is where some Windows shill says "you only need to fix it once!" as if this is your only computer ever, and the only problem you need to fix. And then Windows changes it back to their default in next year's update.

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[–] [email protected] 34 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (7 children)

The difference between Linux and Windows is on Linux you're working with the operating system to make modifications and taking advantage of its vast resources (extensive wikis on major distos, terminal auto completion with fish and zsh, preconfigured defaults when installing through the package manager, etc). Meanwhile on Windows you're actively working against the system in order to disable unwanted features like AI and telemetry.

(Also I would recommend looking into Debian, the software may be a tad bit old but its the most stable distribution)

[–] [email protected] 28 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Happy Debian daily driver here. I would never ever recommend raw Debian to a garden variety would-be Linux convert.

If you think something like Debian is something a Linux illiterate can just pick up and start using proficiently, you're severely out of touch with how most computer users actually think about their machines. If you even so much as know the name of your file explorer program, you're in a completely different league.

Debian prides itself on being a lean, no bloat, and stable environment made only of truly free software (with the ability to opt-in to nonfree software). To people like us, that's a clean, blank canvas on a rock-solid, reliable foundation that won't enshittify. But to most people, it's an austere, outdated, and unfashionable wasteland full of flaky, ugly tooling.

Debian can be polished to any standard one likes, but you're expected to do it yourself. Most people just aren't in the game to play it like that. Debian saddles questions of choice almost no one is asking, or frankly, even knew was a question that was ask*-able*. Mandatory customizeability is a flaw, not a feature.

I am absolutely team "just steer them to Mint". All the goodness of Debian snuck into their OS like medicine in a kid's dessert, wrapped up in something they might actually find palatable. Debian itself can be saved for when, or shall I say if, the user eventually goes poking under the hood to discover how the machine actually ticks.

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[–] [email protected] 95 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

What the actual fuck, microsoft?

[–] [email protected] 66 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

"We're entitled to everything to do, every scrap of data, everything you create, so we can feed our AI to make even more money, because you are ~~making the mistake of~~ using our product. If someone does hack our systems and steals all your data, who fucking cares? You aren't me. I still get paid."

-Microsuck execs.

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[–] [email protected] 74 points 3 weeks ago

Ahahaha, holly fucking shit.

They literally added some OS in their spyware.

[–] [email protected] 74 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (9 children)

Windows Debloat Tool:

https://github.com/LeDragoX/Win-Debloat-Tools

I run this on any new Win install. I also suggest Portmaster so you know where your data is going (I use it on Linux too!)

https://safing.io/

However, if you can, it is really worth switching to Linux. Linux is built as a tool by the people using the tool. Windows is making a product. Enough said.

If people would like to "try Linux before you buy," check out DistroSea. It spins up a virtual machine of whatever distro and flavour you choose to try.

https://distrosea.com/

There are a surprising and growing number of Linux compatible tools. Software is usually why people have a hard time switching. If you're dependent on Photoshop/Adobe, check out:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve

Gamers should check out:

https://www.protondb.com/

This site shows how well games run on Proton (compatibility tool) and people offer solutions to get them running if there's any snags.

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[–] [email protected] 72 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

Welp. Time to buy a NAS to back up all my stuff and rebuild this pc with Linux.

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[–] [email protected] 62 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

I remember them doing this with Internet Explorer back in the 90s.

"We can't remove this thing we don't want to remove! Look! It's hastily integrated with the OS! We can't remove it ever!"

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[–] [email protected] 52 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (19 children)

For years... well pretty much since I had a PC, I had a Windows partition. Why? Well because I (sadly) paid for the damn thing (damn OEM deals). Plus, I admit, sometimes they were things that only ran on Windows.

For few years now though, everything, literally, from the latest tech gadget to playing games to VR, works on Linux.

Few weeks ago I deleted the Windows partition. I didn't have to. I didn't boot on it for months. It didn't affect me.

Still, I now feel ... safer, more relaxed, coherent.

When I see shit like that, I feel even better!

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[–] [email protected] 42 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

Explorer has had so many dependencies attached to it that if even one of them sneezes, the entire desktop environment crashes and has to restart.

Actually insane when you think about it. Why the hell is a file explorer the root process of the desktop??????

I've only ever forced stopped thunar once and it was because I was messing with some thumbnail settings. Naturally the rest of my system worked as normal, as well as the other thunar windows open lol.

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[–] [email protected] 40 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

Looks like I picked the right year to switch to Linux on my primary pc.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Switching to Free Software is kind of like planting a tree: the best time was years ago (because you'd be over the learning curve). The second-best time is now.

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[–] [email protected] 40 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I won't upgrade past 10 anyways and if I can't run 10, back to Linux I go.

[–] [email protected] 33 points 3 weeks ago (10 children)

You've got until late 2025 before 10 stops receiving security updates. I would not stay long after that.

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[–] [email protected] 36 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

So.. how does this exist in corporate environments where PCI DSS is necessary? Is the government also going to have to deal with fallout from this?

I wonder if there will ever be a point where legislation dictates features from an os vendor.. we lost control of our hardware when they started forcing updates. I'm sure someone will hack a DLL or something to allow explorer to run but kill this component... But should we really need to hack our systems to protect ourselves from spying?

Inb4 Linux - I ran Slackware in the early 90s, and my server still runs a deb based distro.. but when I want to play Forza, I'm pretty limited with my choices, etc.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

Microsoft: We're going to arbitrarily require TPM and SecureBoot and say that makes Windows 11 more secure even though that's a feature of your motherboard, not our operating system.

Also Microsoft: In Windows 11 the file explorer program depends on a program that periodically sends us screenshots of your screen.

So secure!

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[–] [email protected] 31 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

how the fuck do you even begin making recall a dependency for explorer?

[–] [email protected] 27 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I can't say how. But I can guess why.

"Sorry, can't remove it. It's a system dependency"

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